Trial Discussion Thread #30

[Carmelita]

I think there's a magazine for it.. Barely Legal I think it's called....

I can understand that people think Oscar is a lying murdering puke of a man and I respect the valid points that are put forth that may indicate that is true, but stuff like this? Good Gravy, Reeva was older than Oscar. If you want to argue points do so from logical ground.


There is a lot of this type of comment that is simply fruitless to the conversation IMO.

 

[TipDog]

I think there is sound reason to question his reliability though. Mixing up the order of the calls is not insignificant. It's a major error in the narrative.

This is EXACTLY what I've been saying...

...about Oscar Pistorius and his mix and match testimony with major, very significant errors in the narrative.

Sorry, but I'm just so perplexed that any witness' testimony could be held under such scrutiny, while OP can just cry and puke, and some will overlook his blatant lies on the stand.

 

[Greater Than]

Owning racehorses is a very expensive hobby. They don't make money unless you are very lucky.



Surely he would not be allowed to profit from his crime? (when if convicted)

The Son of Sam law prohibits it in the U.S. I wonder (hope) if any such law exists in SA.

 

[lithgow1]

I think there is sound reason to question his reliability though. Mixing up the order of the calls is not insignificant. It's a major error in the narrative.

This could just as easily apply to Oscar Pistorius and he has a lot more 'misunderstandings' to explain than the security guy does IMO.

 

[weeeva]

Do you understand though that it may be difficult for some (okay, me) to understand such a blind panic though? He didn't call security, he didn't use a panic button, he didn't wait for Reeva to respond or at least get a visual, he didn't fire a warning shot or wait for an intruder to be able to get out before he started firing - and that's where SA law draws the line at putative self-defence.
I'm sure we've all had heart-stopping moments of fear in our lives - when we've been faced with a similar scenario or worse and few of us, if any, reacted as he did. We base our opinions, often, off our own experiences. My then 7 year old daughter showed more presence of mind in calling 911 during the 'blind panic' of my mother dying. He showed more presence of mind when he thought there was an intruder in the past...what made that night any different than those he spent with Sam and a washing machine?

And I get that people act differently...but his own history makes it difficult to overlook he has a history of different responces to panic, fear, or apprehension. None of them ended with him firing his gun four times, much less killing someone.

MOO

I do understand why some people don't understand such a blind panic. But all the things you have mentioned that he didn't do are the very things that some of us wouldn't do when in a blind panic. Yes he has a history of different responses but surely you understand that people don't have a list imprinted on their brain of how to react in a particular way at all times, in a panic situation. I think his past escapades are indicative of how he behaved that night, a disaster waiting to happen.

 

[lithgow1]

Whatever on earth a 'blind panic' turns out to be, you'll not convince me it's any justification for firing four bullets at someone, anyone, on the other side of a closed door. At least not in the particular case we're talking about. I may well 'buy' someone else's panic, but not this guy's.

 

[weeeva]

So he didn't have a vacation in Mozambique last December then?

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/oscar-s-uncle-wants-to-take-him-to-moz-1.1484657

.. also, just to post a couple of quotes from that article, which I find truly astonishing (well, no I don't find them astonishing, to be honest) ..


Amazing. Who does he think he is?

Yes as I already said, you can't believe everything you see/hear in the media.

 

[BritsKate]

I think there is sound reason to question his reliability though. Mixing up the order of the calls is not insignificant. It's a major error in the narrative.

Really, I don't have a problem with him mixing up the order of the calls. There's a lot more reason for Oscar to lie about it then Baba and Oscar's testimony was overwhelmingly unreliable, with a narrative that still doesn't make sense to me.

So far...Sam Taylor, Kevin Larena, Darren Fresco, Estelle van der Merwe, Pieter Baba, Charl Johnson, Dr. Stipp, Michelle Burger, Annette Stipp, Mangena, Vermeulen, Jason & Maria Loupis, van Rensburg, van Staden, van der Nest, Rens, Moller, Maritz and Sales are either mistaken, lying, vengeful, inept, or corrupt. Oscar himself called many of them liars or intimated tampering, contamination, and disturbance from the witness stand.

(Defense pathologist largely agrees with State. Defence forensic expert contradicts Oscar's testimony.)

Or...Oscar could just be lying. And really, right now, I'd probably believe a chipmunk on the stand over Oscar. It just isn't difficult for me to lend Baba the benefit of the doubt.

MOO

 

[TorisMom003]

Yes as I already said, you can't believe everything you see/hear in the media.

In this day and age where suing has become the "norm", if all of these stories about OP being out and about where complete lies, why would he not have his lawyers file papers? How about the family spokesperson, why isn't she suing the papers since they are reporting what she "may or may not" have said? How about the family themselves? Uncle Arnold has been quoted as well as saying that yes, OP did indeed go out with friends to a bar. So why isn't he filing a suit against those that printed the "lies"?

Or perhaps, since the family, the family spokesperson and OP himself are NOT suing anyone and have NOT put any of the media on notice to stop and desist with the lies being printed that the stories reported in the media are actually true.

MOO

 

[BritsKate]

I do understand why some people don't understand such a blind panic. But all the things you have mentioned that he didn't do are the very things that some of us wouldn't do when in a blind panic. Yes he has a history of different responses but surely you understand that people don't have a list imprinted on their brain of how to react in a particular way at all times, in a panic situation. I think his past escapades are indicative of how he behaved that night, a disaster waiting to happen.

No, I'm sorry, but I do think past behavior is indicative of future responce. I don't believe someone can become so differently wired that they would suddenly have a totally different, and in my view wholly unreasonable, action than they did previously with the same set of perimeters.

A totally different situation? I might be able to concede a different responce but this was seemingly exactly like previous events. Yet this time he didn't ask Reeva if she'd heard a noise too and he didn't not fire as he'd done with his washing machine.

I agree Oscar was a ticking time bomb though. I truly believe, for a great many reasons, it was just a matter of time before someone died at his hands.

 

[weeeva]

So he didn't have a vacation in Mozambique last December then?

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/oscar-s-uncle-wants-to-take-him-to-moz-1.1484657

.. also, just to post a couple of quotes from that article, which I find truly astonishing (well, no I don't find them astonishing, to be honest) ..










Amazing. Who does he think he is?

So even though his own family has said that he has been out and about, not stuck in Uncle Arnold's home, because it was printed in an article we shouldn't believe it? Or the fact that there is video of OP out on the track running, clearly not Uncle Arnold's home again, is to be ignored as well? Well then, perhaps we shouldn't believe what we see in court either then since it is being televised thanks to the media world.

MOO

That is not what I am saying. I don't know if everything that was reported on the Dateline show was true or not, but it did show OP training.

 

[lithgow1]

Really, I don't have a problem with him mixing up the order of the calls. There's a lot more reason for Oscar to lie about it then Baba and Oscar's testimony was overwhelmingly unreliable, with a narrative that still doesn't make sense to me.

So far...Sam Taylor, Kevin Larena, Darren Fresco, Estelle van der Merwe, Pieter Baba, Charl Johnson, Dr. Stipp, Michelle Burger, Annette Stipp, Mangena, Vermeulen, Jason & Maria Loupis, van Rensburg, van Staden, van der Nest, Rens, Moller, Maritz and Sales are either mistaken, lying, vengeful, inept, or corrupt. Oscar himself called many of them liars or intimated tampering, contamination, and disturbance from the witness stand.

(Defense pathologist largely agrees with State. Defence forensic expert contradicts Oscar's testimony.)

Or...Oscar could just be lying. And really, right now, I'd probably believe a chipmunk on the stand over Oscar. It just isn't difficult for me to lend Baba the benefit of the doubt.

MOO

I'm really only quoting you cause I think your post with its 'list of liars' should be on replay. I really do wish those who believe OP to be 'innocent' to the point where he's already suffered enough (!) would have a good long look at that list and ask themselves why all those different people would testify as they did. Either 20 people are essentially not telling the truth, or one isn't.

 

[TorisMom003]

I can understand that people think Oscar is a lying murdering puke of a man and I respect the valid points that are put forth that may indicate that is true, but stuff like this? Good Gravy, Reeva was older than Oscar. If you want to argue points do so from logical ground.


There is a lot of this type of comment that is simply fruitless to the conversation IMO.

Reeva was older yes. However she was only one of two of his girlfriends that was in the 29 to 30s age mark. The others, young.

 

[JuneBug67]

This is EXACTLY what I've been saying...

...about Oscar Pistorius and his mix and match testimony with major, very significant errors in the narrative.

Sorry, but I'm just so perplexed that any witness' testimony could be held under such scrutiny, while OP can just cry and puke, and some will overlook his blatant lies on the stand.

It's all valuable in one way or another. Generally I agree that arbitrary sifting and selective focus is bad for reasoning, though we probably disagree which side of this debate is more frequently guilty of that.

As far as OP's inconsistencies go, the devil is only in the details when the broad arcs collapse. The prosecutor still has a crippling timeline problem if you accept the basic premise that one set of sounds were bat strikes and the other set of sounds were gun shots, and that the latter came last. The broad arcs support the fundamentals of Oscar's version.

 

[Bobbie Elliott]

Schizophrenia often has an onset in the late teen years or early adulthood, so by extension someone could have been a child or teen celebrity.


according to wikipedia the list includes
Syd Barret of Pink Floyd, Darryl Hammond of SNL and Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys....who knew?!

Hi Crass

I'm on my hobby horse again.

In the individual wiki bios of these 3, each has received at least 3 different psychiatric diagnoses. All at some point, were identified as having bipolar. I think that this just highlights the difficulties of psychiatric diagnosis.

 

[kittychi]

Sorry if I missed any discussion about this, but just in case we haven't seen it yet:

Oscar Pistorius accused of taking acting classes before standing trial for the murder of girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ot...-trial-murder-girlfriend-Reeva-Steenkamp.html

And now I shall go and rinse my brain out with soap after reading DailyMail

 

[TorisMom003]

That is not what I am saying. I don't know if everything that was reported on the Dateline show was true or not, but it did show OP training.

No, the response has been "we can't believe everything we see/hear in the media". When it has been shown that OP has not been living like a recluse in Uncle Arnold's home the response has been "we can't believe everything we see/hear in the media". When I posted the video of OP shown at the track the response was "we can't believe everything we see/hear in the media".

After a while one has to believe that the media is not going to print lies upon lies without the family, OP, his lawyers, someone doing something to stop it.

MOO

 

[Carmelita]

Between post 1001 and here, IMO, there have been statements made that seem to me to be winding up confirmation bias; Oscar wanted to tamper with witnesses, Oscar was given special treatment because of his celebrity, Oscar has a girlfriend because if he didn’t she would say that she wasn’t his girlfriend, Oscar called friends because he couldn’t lift Reeva, Oscar blatantly tried to show that he was still friends with Reeva’s friends, Oscar’s dated beautiful young women, there is hope that Oscar will not be able to appeal his case if he is convicted, Oscar went out shortly (2 weeks) after killing Reeva points toward his guilt, Oscar took acting classes to be a better witness.

Good Gravy.

 

[JuneBug67]

This could just as easily apply to Oscar Pistorius and he has a lot more 'misunderstandings' to explain than the security guy does IMO.

I think that would be expected to some degree given his length of time on the stand, the questioning style and goals of Nel, and Oscar's own personality and unwillingness to accept responsibility for seemingly anything other than, broadly, the death of Reeva.

 

[Viper]

BIB- That is incorrect. He not only attended the autopsy, he provided the L-scale used for all the measurements.

I do not recall him saying the blood over the bed was arterial spatter, but I will certainly check it out and report back.

On a side issue, I found it interesting that during his testimony ,Vander Ness did not once mention whose blood he was talking about, when it is common knowledge that OP spilled or spattered or dropped some (however small the quantity) of his own blood that evening. I assume the details are in the blood spatter report, for the defence to ignore at their peril...another rat trap set by Nel.

Wow, ok.

BIB1. What is an L-scale? Are you referring to the L shaped ruler? Why wouldn't the pathologist have a supply of those of their own? Why would the blood spatter police expert attend the autopsy? Do you have a link?

BIB2. Good. Do your research and then report back to us. In the meantime I stand by what I said.

BIB3. I was not aware that OP spilled his own blood that night. I would love to read about it though, do you have a link

Finally, addressing others with, "That is incorrect." Or, "Wrong." Just seems so inappropriate and so disrespectful to me. Wouldn't you agree?