Trial Discussion Thread #30

[TrueDetective]

This is why it amazes me when people on here say his action's after the shooting don't come across as those of a guilty man, the first person he called was Johan Stander, can anyone relate to that?, finding your partner in a pool of blood and not calling for medical help first?.

His immediate concern was for himself
He wanted trouble shooters.
That is crystal clear.
He even told security "everything's fine"
Again, very very surprised that Nel stopped his detailed x-exam after the breaking down of the door as there was much to question in the aftermath and I wanted to hear it all. There was only one chance to interrogate OP and IMO it was wasted in a number of important aspects.
I don't fully understand why and truly believe that Nel let him off the hook but...
cape tells us not to worry so I still have faith!

 

[Emz73]

Do I detect a hint of bias against the defendant?

Who would you compare him to in the States?

:sigh:

 

[DebinGA]

Did the police make any effort to test if OP's "I heard a noise in the bathroom" tale was even possible?

bail affi: "I heard a noise in the bathroom and realized that someone was in the bathroom."

trial statement read by Outwage: "I heard the bathroom window sliding open. I believed that an intruder or intruders had entered the bathroom through the bathroom window which was not fixed with burglar bars."

OP during Nel's cross: "The noise [from the bathroom] was hard. The sliding of the window and it hitting the window frame -- it was clear"

OP's bathroom window has three panels the same size. The middle panel [seems imo] to be fixed/stationary. The two outer panels [seem imo] to slide inward away from the window frame to cover all or part of the middle panel, when opened.

Question: Was it possible for OP to have heard a window sliding open and hitting the window frame? NO imo, unless the window isn't as I described, which is entirely possible from my just looking at pics.

Pic [notice handles placement]: http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01675/SNN1805BATH---_1675168a.jpg

 

[molly333]

I will repost it, but you have to remember (as I said when I posted it) that Oscar's case is the FIRST in SA legal history, in which putative self defense is being offered as a defense, when there was NO contact at all between the perceived aggressor and the accused (Oscar).
The putative self defense 'offering' is only as good as the psychologist testifying for the defense and Oscar's OWN testimony (which was a disaster)

If putative self defence is successful in Oscar's specific case, the backlash will be unreal, as the precedent is too tragic to contend with. Courts full......


http://www.justice.gov.za/sca/judgments/sca_2014/sca2014-052.pdf

I doubt he is going to be successful. He won't evade both murder and culpable homicide. Case law almost makes that impossible. This chap (Mkhize) had an altercation with those he felt threatened him, making his fears real.

Oscar heard a 'window slide'.

Just my opinion.

I was thinking of the case where the man shot and killed his pregnant wife coming out of the bathroom, thinking she was a burglar.

If ever a case looked suspicious, that was it.

And, it's very close to this one.

 

[shane13]

After Barry attempted to mangle Chris Mangena on the stand re: double taps and Mangena's look of utter disbelief whilst Barry 'drove his point home'. If I recall Mangena said, 'double tap'? "Impossible. Only for those who shoot competitively and the bullets would not have hit her where they did - too spaced out for the speed of a double tap." And then Mangena almost rolled his eyes.

Fast forward: No, not double tap. Rapid succession.

Camera goes to Nel and that look.............. :floorlaugh:

A little while later Mangena was also caught giggling in the background.

Honestly, what were the DT thinking. :floorlaugh:

I made a post a few days back:
People incl. here, do not grasp the intelligence of Oscar in his Oscar Speak coming from his Oscar World.

Oscar has said due to the trauma, he cannot recall the most important moments of the shooting and aftermath.

Now Dixon, e.g. testified that he spoke with Oscar, and that he was basing some of his testimony on what happened from what Oscar told him.

But Oscar testified under oath that he was offering a "reconstruction" of events as his memory fails in parts. But he then said his reconstruction is at least partly based on the testimony of experts [some of whom got their testimony from him, and on photographs [that were altered, don't ya know.]!

So I concluded a few days ago, that Oscar must be set free. Nel, SA Constitutional law--all are no match for Oscar in Oscar-Speak communicating the Oscar-World into our world. The infinite looping, Quantum-indeterminate Oscar-World [see Schoedinger's cat paradox] is just too much for Nel, SA const. law, etc.

He will go free, no one is a match for the creator of Oscar-Speak and the Oscar World.

People shoud be prepared...

 

[molly333]

His actions after the 'fact' were more damning that anything that came before.

I'm waiting for the Standers on the cross. I believe Gerrie is as well.

Gerrie alluded to Oscar 'covering up' and trying to protect his guilty act and conscience when Oscar was on the stand. He said, "You didn't want Mr Baba there". Considering Clarice Stander was blocking Baba at the front door and running the door like a bouncer, she and her daddy have quite a few questions to answer.

Personally, I reckon Oscar wanted Reeva's body out of the house. Bags/rope etc. He wanted the Stander to take her somewhere (hospital etc) allowing him time at his home to 'clean up upstairs'; before the 'crowds' arrived.

That was his intention.

And for that alone he belongs here --------> :jail:

They might have a few questions to answer, but it seems that nobody asked.

Why is that?

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

I reckon Oscar put Roux up to that. Oscar bigging himself up , and Roux in a moment of inattention running with it.. it was the second time , too.. Oscar had told Roux that the police photographer took MANY pics of him, SO MANY he was offended by this, Roux ran with it , got the photographer to get back on the stand to produce the other pics, the MANY.. and it was 5 more. 4 originally for a total of 9 altogether, Roux collapsed and let it drop.. but I bet Roux was furious.

:floorlaugh:

Oscar. Mr BIG.

In the same way he told a magazine shortly before Reeva's tragic death that he owned property in Italy. The State were running around like loons before the bail hearing trying to find records of this 'property' so that they could us this as additional tick to oppose bail....

No surprises. Mr Big doesn't own property in Italy......

He also claimed to have bought himself some insane sports car after the Olympics. Mr Big. Guess what............. it belonged to Divaris.

He really is a :liar: Typical of those delusions of grandeur......

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

They might have a few questions to answer, but it seems that nobody asked.

Why is that?

Because Gerrie did not want them as state witnesses. We have an adversarial system here.
Gerrie wants them on the cross.

Barry can't afford not to call at least one of them to testify to Oscar's state of mind after the fact as 'friendlies'. (Oscar needs that for any of his 10000 defenses to work...)

I repeat, Gerrie wants them on the cross. He took a gamble, but I reckon he knows Barry almost 'has to call them'.

Should be better than Dixon I reckon.

 

[TrueDetective]

1) I heard a lawyer suggest it on that SA legal round table

2) Defense case is just starting

The defence case started over a year ago in their bail application. No mention of of a defence based on a head injury.
At the start of the trial in his plea explanation.. No mention of a defence based on a head injury.
The defence case is putative self-defence.
The accident has been mentioned in OP's testimony but they have surely missed the boat in terms of a motive/mitigating factor.
The defence cannot play a straight bat all along (with a few new flashy strokes thrown in now and again) and then suddenly start claiming that the bat is actually an apple and they now want to play crazy golf...
Nobody will buy it.

 

[TrueDetective]

Thanks.

That's a shame.

Oh well, suppose I'll watch the past few days again and continue my notes.



Thanks bud.

Is that you Roger?
I expect that report on my desk in oh, 3 years? A napkin will be fine.

 

[molly333]

The defence case started over a year ago in their bail application. No mention of of a defence based on a head injury.
At the start of the trial in his plea explanation.. No mention of a defence based on a head injury.
The defence case is putative self-defence.
The accident has been mentioned in OP's testimony but they have surely missed the boat in terms of a motive/mitigating factor.
The defence cannot play a straight bat all along (with a few new flashy strokes thrown in now and again) and then suddenly start claiming that the bat is actually an apple and they now want to play crazy golf...
Nobody will buy it.

I keep forgetting how different this system is compared to ours. :banghead:

Nel was trying to get OP to testify against himself on the stand to a crime he is not even charged with.

Did you see my reference to the man who shot his pregnant wife coming out bathroom thinking she was a burglar?

I think he got an 8 year suspended sentence.

 

[james83]

His actions after the 'fact' were more damning that anything that came before.

I'm waiting for the Standers on the cross. I believe Gerrie is as well.

Gerrie alluded to Oscar 'covering up' and trying to protect his guilty act and conscience when Oscar was on the stand. He said, "You didn't want Mr Baba there". Considering Clarice Stander was blocking Baba at the front door and running the door like a bouncer, she and her daddy have quite a few questions to answer.

Personally, I reckon Oscar wanted Reeva's body out of the house. Bags/rope etc. He wanted the Stander to take her somewhere (hospital etc) allowing him time at his home to 'clean up upstairs'; before the 'crowds' arrived.

That was his intention.

And for that alone he belongs here --------> :jail:

There was an interview with Clarice Stander not long after the incident, her name was changed for it but it was obviously her, at one point she say's Oscar asked my dad to take Reeva to hospital, i wasn't sure whether to read it as Oscar wanted Johan Stander to drive her to hospital and Oscar come along aswell, or if Oscar meant For Johan to drive her alone.
I think i tend to lean towards your opinion.

 

[DebinGA]

OP's courtroom histrionics seem to be in support of some future claim of mental impairment, i.e. neither genuine nor spontaneous.

 

[james83]

The defence case started over a year ago in their bail application. No mention of of a defence based on a head injury.
At the start of the trial in his plea explanation.. No mention of a defence based on a head injury.
The defence case is putative self-defence.
The accident has been mentioned in OP's testimony but they have surely missed the boat in terms of a motive/mitigating factor.
The defence cannot play a straight bat all along (with a few new flashy strokes thrown in now and again) and then suddenly start claiming that the bat is actually an apple and they now want to play crazy golf...
Nobody will buy it.

There's a lot wrong with his head but it has nothing to do with any accident.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Did the police make any effort to test if OP's "I heard a noise in the bathroom" tale was even possible?

bail affi: "I heard a noise in the bathroom and realized that someone was in the bathroom."

trial statement read by Outwage: "I heard the bathroom window sliding open. I believed that an intruder or intruders had entered the bathroom through the bathroom window which was not fixed with burglar bars."

OP during Nel's cross: "The noise [from the bathroom] was hard. The sliding of the window and it hitting the window frame -- it was clear"

OP's bathroom window has three panels the same size. The middle panel [seems imo] to be fixed/stationary. The two outer panels [seem imo] to slide inward away from the window frame to cover all or part of the middle panel, when opened.

Question: Was it possible for OP to have heard a window sliding open and hitting the window frame? NO imo, unless the window isn't as I described, which is entirely possible from my just looking at pics.

Pic [notice handles placement]: http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01675/SNN1805BATH---_1675168a.jpg

He used the noise the fans were making to 'cover' for the fact that he didn't hear Reeva move out of the bed. But he had to move from the fans quickly in order to hear the window slam - hence his story about faffing around with jeans and LED lights.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

I keep forgetting how different this system is compared to ours. :banghead:

Nel was trying to get OP to testify against himself on the stand to a crime he is not even charged with.

Did you see my reference to the man who shot his pregnant wife coming out bathroom thinking she was a burglar?

I think he got an 8 year suspended sentence.

You are aware that the man shot once, at a moving target he thought was a burglar. He also rushed her to hospital immediately.

He didn't do: FOUR shots, no movement, Black Talon ammo into a space as big as a wheelie bin. He didn't run around for 15 minutes wailing and screaming. He didn't sit over his wife's body crying and he certainly didn't phone a 'friend'.

Simple.

 

[TrueDetective]

Did the police make any effort to test if OP's "I heard a noise in the bathroom" tale was even possible?

bail affi: "I heard a noise in the bathroom and realized that someone was in the bathroom."

trial statement read by Outwage: "I heard the bathroom window sliding open. I believed that an intruder or intruders had entered the bathroom through the bathroom window which was not fixed with burglar bars."

OP during Nel's cross: "The noise [from the bathroom] was hard. The sliding of the window and it hitting the window frame -- it was clear"

OP's bathroom window has three panels the same size. The middle panel [seems imo] to be fixed/stationary. The two outer panels [seem imo] to slide inward away from the window frame to cover all or part of the middle panel, when opened.

Question: Was it possible for OP to have heard a window sliding open and hitting the window frame? NO imo, unless the window isn't as I described, which is entirely possible from my just looking at pics.

Pic [notice handles placement]: http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01675/SNN1805BATH---_1675168a.jpg

A great point Deb.
the lack of tests (or amateurish standard of some, so far) has even a surprise. I guess the problem the PT have had is that detail in OP's version has been added so recently.
The only way new tests could be done is a reopening of the case and as exhibits are all over the place I'm not sure it would be easy or even possible.
Without wishing to be rude to our SA friends.. Is this lack of high quality testing and general thoroughness a feature in SA cases? Is it a financial and/or resource issue?

 

[TrueDetective]

I was thinking of the case where the man shot and killed his pregnant wife coming out of the bathroom, thinking she was a burglar.

If ever a case looked suspicious, that was it.

And, it's very close to this one.

But this one doesn't look suspicious?

 

[soozieqtips]

Because Gerrie did not want them as state witnesses. We have an adversarial system here.
Gerrie wants them on the cross.

Barry can't afford not to call at least one of them to testify to Oscar's state of mind after the fact as 'friendlies'. (Oscar needs that for any of his 10000 defenses to work...)

I repeat, Gerrie wants them on the cross. He took a gamble, but I reckon he knows Barry almost 'has to call them'.

Should be better than Dixon I reckon.

Hi Cape - loving your posts!

Okay, couple of questions. Please bear with me :smile:

1. One of the Standers (Johann) has been in court listening to evidence as far as I recall. I thought witnesses weren't allowed to be in court before giving evidence?

2. The missing phone. The DT handed it in a couple of weeks later. Since OP's house was a crime scene and someone deliberately removed the phone, can the Judge at least ask how the DT came to be in possession of it, ie; who gave it to them?

3. Do you have any idea what loose ends Nel might tie up in his closing argument? There seemed to be many things that he didn't pursue that several of us thought he would pursue. Is that part of his master plan to weave it all together right at the end? Can he imply that whoever removed the phone must have been someone of authority?

4. Is it at all possible that the Judge could be influenced/intimidated by people in higher places to let him walk free? If the scene was disturbed intentionally and included stealing a watch to make it look like the police were bumbling thieves, then certain people have gone to great lengths to protect OP. Bearing that in mind, do you think the Judge is immune to pressure from external sources?

Thank you!

 

[jay-jay]

Any and all husbands / boyfriends that had murdered (shot) their wives / girlfriends late at night after an argument and then told the judge that they thought it was an intruder breaking in, armed to the teeth, with murderous intents. There's too many to pick just one.

It's the oldest one in the book, isn't it ..