Trial Discussion Thread #30

[zoran]

What did they say to each other--in Oscar-Speak?

Oscar is whispering..no sorry he is telling him softly that when he gets out of jail he will break his legs

 

[sicknote]

Would Oscar need to disclose any mental illness when applying for new firearm licenses?

 

[shane13]

Pistol Gunshot is 1000 times louder than bat strike

As I've written here (in my words about sonic boom incorporation in the gunshot sound pulse etc.)

At about 2 minute mark a well-known SA forensic consultant, David Klatzow, cites the difference between sounds from a gunshot and a bat strike.

Case closed, next?

Oscar Pistorius Trial: eNCA interviews David Klatzow on Oscar trial proceedings - YouTube

 

[Val1]

Can Baba's evidence be trusted? He was adamant that he had phoned OP first, but the phone evidence proved that it was OP who phoned Baba first.

Just wondering, could Baba's mobile phone be recorded as a gprs call? Is there any way to trace calls from the mobile in the buggy or just the cell number that received and answered calls via the main security line? Another way that Stander could "help"?

 

[steveml]

Would Oscar need to disclose any mental illness when applying for new firearm licenses?

I think you have to submit to being in a stable mental condition.

There's some useful SA firearm license info. here :-

Link


:smile:

 

[molly333]

What do you think? She had a bullet through her head and her brains were blown out the back of her head.

Do you understand how the human body works?

She stopped breathing immediately is what the pathologist said. Blood began shooting out of the arteries that were severed in her right arm and her hip. The heart still pumps blood until there is not enough blood pressure to get oxygen to the heart, then it stops too.

OP's story is that he blew her brains out of her head at about 3:05, and at 3:23 he carried her down the stairs. After 18 minutes with a severed right arm, an exploded hip, and head blown out the back, she would have bled out and not had arterial blood splatter on the walls and sofa beneath the stairs.

Do you think her heart was still beating nearly 20 minutes after having her head blown out and her right arm nearly amputated?

Can you explain how 20 minutes after being shot there would be arterial blood splatter, how her heart would still be beating, and why there were no large pools of blood in the bathroom

I can't explain how there would be arterial blood spatter two minutes after she was shot. It's obviously not arterial blood spatter from a beating heart.

That's why the kinked hose theory [thanks to Carmelita] is the only thing I've heard that could explain it if all the blood spatter experts say it looks like arterial blood.

There were no large pools of blood in the bathroom because she died immediately. There were no large pools of blood anywhere. Nothing like in your picture.

 

[molly333]

Pistol Gunshot is 1000 times louder than bat strike

As I've told you (in my words about sonic boom incorporation in the gunshot sound pulse etc.)

At about 2 minute mark a well-known SA forensic consultant, David Klatzow, cites the difference between sounds from a gunshot and a bat strike.

Case closed, next?

Oscar Pistorius Trial: eNCA interviews David Klatzow on Oscar trial proceedings - YouTube

Obviously gunshot being 1000 times louder than bat strike did not factor into the equation that night over that distance because the Stipps thought they were two sets of gunshots. And, Dr. Stipp has experience with gunshots being in the military.

So toss this expert. He can't contradict what the Stipps heard.

But, I'm wondering if Dixon was meant to provide an overview of the defense case, because I understand they will be bringing in experts to the particular things Dixon discussed, such as ballistics, etc. So maybe his task was to just give an overview as any scientist could.

 

[nastasya]

kink in the hose---all you have to do is release pressure by unkinking the hose. The water doesn't have to be turned on, just present in the hose.

The human body is not a hose.

As soon as Reeva's right arm was nearly amputated the heart pumped blood continuously out of the arteries in her arm.

In addition, her right hip had a hole blown through it, and her head also had a hole blown through it. The blood would have drained out.

See the attached photo. There was no kink in any hose. I'm not sure who came up with that analogy, but it is not completely inaccurate.

Dead bodies riddled with bullet holes do not squirt blood from arteries unless the heart is beating.

 

[nastasya]

What did they say to each other--in Oscar-Speak?

"Don't worry, you did fine. The people who think I'm innocent will believe anything..."

 

[molly333]

The human body is not a hose.

As soon as Reeva's right arm was nearly amputated the heart pumped blood continuously out of the arteries in her arm.

In addition, her right hip had a hole blown through it, and her head also had a hole blown through it. The blood would have drained out.

See the attached photo. There was no kink in any hose. I'm not sure who came up with that analogy, but it is not completely inaccurate.

Dead bodies riddled with bullet holes do not squirt blood from arteries unless the heart is beating.

But neither do hearts beat in people who die instantly.

I'd say it's a non starter--an irrelevant bit of evidence because there is no explanation for it. Have you seen a picture of this "arterial blood spatter"?

I haven't. Maybe the expert didn't know what he was talking about.

This was all very quick and she died instantly.

 

[nastasya]

Obviously gunshot being 1000 times louder than bat strike did not factor into the equation that night over that distance because the Stipps thought they were two sets of gunshots. And, Dr. Stipp has experience with gunshots being in the military.

So toss this expert. He can't contradict what the Stipps heard.

But, I'm wondering if Dixon was meant to provide an overview of the defense case, because I understand they will be bringing in experts to the particular things Dixon discussed, such as ballistics, etc. So maybe his task was to just give an overview as any scientist could.

The reason the difference in loudness is critical is because the Stipps were the only witnesses who had a direct line of sight to OP's open bathroom window.

Sound is carried by waves through the air. The loudness is proportional to the energy of the waves.

The sound waves traveling unimpeded through the air to the Stipps' house would explain why they are the only witnesses to hear both the first bangs (the cricket bat) and the second bangs (the gunshots).

This expert did not contradict the Stipps.

Instead, he showed that the reason the other witnesses only heard the second set of bangs is because the sound of the cricket bat hitting the door would have been absorbed by the walls and other barriers.

Want science?

How about this.

The sounds from the bathroom would have had to travel around both passages before exiting the door to the deck in the bedroom. Cricket bat sounds wouldn't be as easily heard as gunshots from the witnesses not directly in a clear line of sight. Van der Merwe lived across from the front of the house. She could have heard the arguing in the bedroom and shots, but not the lower energy sound of the cricket bat hitting the door.

 

[nastasya]

I can't explain how there would be arterial blood spatter two minutes after she was shot. It's obviously not arterial blood spatter from a beating heart.

That's why the kinked hose theory [thanks to Carmelita] is the only thing I've heard that could explain it if all the blood spatter experts say it looks like arterial blood.

There were no large pools of blood in the bathroom because she died immediately. There were no large pools of blood anywhere. Nothing like in your picture.

Correct.

There were no large pools of blood anywhere. This means Reeva's body was not slumped over the toilet for 18 minutes while OP ran around to the deck, down to the front door and back, sat with her for 5 minutes, etc.

The arterial spurts show that her heart beat for the last time on the walk down the stairs. When Stipp got to her she had no pulse.

 

[Val1]

No one that was not in the courtroom saw OP on the stand. OP asked to not be shown on video, wanted his voice heard only.

Iirc, OP was against his trial being recorded publicly, period, thought it would wreck his credibility etc.....

 

[Forensics]

Came across this interesting article which says that OJ Simpson's lawyer, Robert Shapiro, believes that the Nel has a very good case and that Pistotius' version is "unbelievable considering the speed with which the successive events in his retelling happened". He also went on to say that the "initial impulse of a person who hears a sound in their house would be to wake up their loved one or ask if they too heard the sound. Then the idea that you would go for a gun and fire into the bathroom before taking any other measure seems far-fetched".

http://www.latinpost.com/articles/1...ture-international-social-media-attention.htm

 

[redheadedgal]

someone asked for pics of the boat:

recovery of the boat after the crash: http://multimedia.timeslive.co.za/videos/2009/02/pistorius-boat-recovered/

 

[Jake18]

Molly, she didn't "die instantly" and I've joined specifically to debate how the post mortem findings dispute Oscar's version. My post will be a a few hours away though as I'm busy. Anyway, after the head shot she suffered a full respiratory arrest but her heart would have beaten for some minutes afterwards allowing some arterial splatter. Prof Saayman stated that her breathing stopped and she would have been "incapacitated" after the head shot- this sounds pedantic but there's a difference between a respiratory arrest and a full cardiac arrest. In this case the former lead to the latter quite quickly but, with some conditions, it doesn't always follow, assuming of course the cause of the resp arrest is identified and treated. Obviously, Reeva's brain injury was untreatable.

 

[nastasya]

But neither do hearts beat in people who die instantly.

I'd say it's a non starter--an irrelevant bit of evidence because there is no explanation for it. Have you seen a picture of this "arterial blood spatter"?

I haven't. Maybe the expert didn't know what he was talking about.

This was all very quick and she died instantly.

Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's a non-starter.

It's an incredibly important piece of evidence for the timeline. We know that there was arterial blood spatter. The reason it's called arterial blood splatter is because it is pumping out of the arteries. The heart pumps blood away from the heart via arteries.

The expert didn't just say blood was leaking from Reeva's body or that the veins were kinked like a hose. That's ridiculous. It didn't happen.

What did happen was Reeva was shot, her body was carried downstairs, and her arteries shot drops of blood onto the couch below the stairs. Her heart was still beating.

If she had been shot at or about 3:05 it would mean her heart was beating for almost 20 minutes.

But it wasn't. We know that because there are no large pools of blood in the bathroom.

The only explanation is that Reeva was killed almost immediately before she was taken out of the bathroom. The only world where this is unexplanable or doesn't make sense is OP's fairy tale he made up about that night.

 

[shane13]

Molly, she didn't "die instantly" and I've joined specifically to debate how the post mortem findings dispute Oscar's version. My post will be a a few hours away though as I'm busy. Anyway, after the head shot she suffered a full respiratory arrest but her heart would have beaten for some minutes afterwards allowing some arterial splatter. Prof Saayman stated that her breathing stopped and she would have been "incapacitated" after the head shot- this sounds pedantic but there's a difference between a respiratory arrest and a full cardiac arrest. In this case the former lead to the latter quite quickly but, with some conditions, it doesn't always follow.

Welcome.
Good post.

 

[Really?]

Molly, she didn't "die instantly" and I've joined specifically to debate how the post mortem findings dispute Oscar's version. My post will be a a few hours away though as I'm busy. Anyway, after the head shot she suffered a full respiratory arrest but her heart would have beaten for some minutes afterwards allowing some arterial splatter. Prof Saayman stated that her breathing stopped and she would have been "incapacitated" after the head shot- this sounds pedantic but there's a difference between a respiratory arrest and a full cardiac arrest. In this case the former lead to the latter quite quickly but, with some conditions, it doesn't always follow, assuming of course the cause of the resp arrest is identified and treated. Obviously, Reeva's brain injury was untreatable.

:welcome4:

 

[Estelle]

What did they say to each other--in Oscar-Speak?

I think he said, "Don't worry, Uncle Arnold, I always win."