Trial Discussion Thread #30

[crasshopper]

The reason you seldom hear of a celebrity having schizophrenia, is because of the nature of the illness. How many people with schizophrenia would be well enough to ever become a celebrity or movie star in the first place?

Schizophrenia often has an onset in the late teen years or early adulthood, so by extension someone could have been a child or teen celebrity.


according to wikipedia the list includes
Syd Barret of Pink Floyd, Darryl Hammond of SNL and Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys....who knew?!

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Hi everyone, I've been lurking for a few weeks but promised myself I wouldn't get involved as i'm pretty busy. However, I was reading the extensive debate about time lines and then felt the need to add my two cents, like you do.

I'm very firmly in the gun shots last camp and I think Reeva's autopsy findings make Oscars "version" implausible. Prof Saayman testified that the head shot would have been fatal and this hasn't been disputed. It's also on record that Reeva would have been able, at the most, to breathe a few breaths following it. Reeva appeared healthy so it's conceivable that her heart would have beaten for some minutes following this respiratory arrest - based on the blood splatter analysis its been stated that she died (that is, her heart stopped beating as well) at the top of the stairs, at about 3:22 am IIRC. The PT has this time at about 5 minutes after the head shots at 3:17, the DT states that the first bangs were the gunshots , so around 3 am or maybe a bit later. Based on the ear witness testimonies the time after these first bangs to Reeva's death at the top of he stairs is about 15-20 minutes. To me, the latter time already seems implausible.

However, don't forget that on post mortem Reeva's heart muscle was pale, consistent with blood loss. Prof Saayman stated that there was about a 50% chance that her arm and hip wounds would also have been fatal, even if the head shot had not occurred. To survive the limb injuries Reeva would have needed major and prompt resuscitation - intubation/ventilation, copious fluids, volume expanders and blood products, trauma surgery and medication to support her cardiac function. And even with all of this she still had a good chance of dying.

If you consider the injuries separately it's possible that with just the limb injuries she could still have some cardiac activity after 20 minutes, given that she would have been able to breathe. However, hypovolaemic shock would have occured well before 20 minutes. Had the head injury been the only injury it's less likely but probably not impossible that there would still have been some weak cardiac activity after 20 minutes, bearing in mind though that she wouldn't have been able to breathe for this time. However, the combination of the two injuries - no oxygen and severe blood loss - means that the time from respiratory arrest (just after the shot to the head) and full cardiac arrest (top of the stairs) would have been shorter than with either of these injuries in isolation. To me, the idea that her heart beat for 20 minutes after a catastrophic head wound, after she stopped breathing and after she was haemorrhaging from severe limb wounds is highly, highly unlikely. I don't know why Dr Perumal is not testifying but I can only speculate that he's refused to go along with this nonsense.

Moreover, on cross exam, Oscar stated that when he entered the bathroom Reeva was "still breathing". As stated above, Prof Saayman said she would have, at the most, only breathed a few more breaths after the head shot. The shot would have severed her brainstem and respiratory control centre instantly. The most likely sequence of events was *headshot* - breathing stops, or *headshot* - a few reflexic breaths then breathing stops. NOT *headshot* followed by oscar sreaming up and down corridors, shouting off balconies and freshly breaking down the door in time to see Reeva breathe. If he's telling the truth abut this then he either prised open the damaged door within seconds or he could already see her through a crack in the door.

And for those who are skeptical of Prof Saayman's testimony because they know someone whose brain was blown from their skull by black talon bullets who breathed/talked/made a cup of tea/whatever afterwards then I suggest you give Mr Roux a call as the DT needs you. They seem to have a sudden vacancy in this area.

All IMO, although I'm comfortable with my physiology.

Thanks for your post .
Just wondered why there was not more blood on the toilet floor considering the severed artery to the arm as well as the hip injury . The bleeding from the head wound could have ran down the pan but not the other injuries.
Or do you think the blood loss on the floor looks as you would expect.
Also how quickly do the eyes turn cloudy after death . This was something that Dr stipps noted when he examined Reeva .
TIA

 

[weeeva]

Hi Bobbie, I am not far from you and I agree that there is very little interest in this case even amongst my local websleuthers friends. Gave you a little wave yesterday on my way home from a lovely week at Noosa.

BBM - It's 'saw' if you're using past simple tense 'I saw'. You'd use 'seen' in the present perfect tense - 'I've seen'. Not that it matters here. Everyone's posts are easy to understand.

Thank-you soozieqtips. I'll try to remember that.

 

[crasshopper]

Crasshoper, did you see that list that you had asked about? I posted the link to that particular post for you on a page or two back.

Thank you so much! I will go find it

 

[Emz73]

From what I read, the second one that you posted, the other case was most definitely because of a threat. He shot the man because he was coming towards him threatening to hurt/kill him.
I
ETA: From your link,

[6] Mbanjwa testified that around 1h30 he informed the group that he was closing up as it was late, and requested them to finish drinking. The deceased and his party refused to leave. A scuffle broke out between Dennis and the security guard. Dennis manhandled the security guard and shunted him out of the bar, but the security guard re-entered the bar. The deceased and Dennis started to hit the security guard with fists and kicked him. The appellant intervened by pulling the security guard away. The two assailants turned on the appellant and assaulted him with fists and kicked him repeatedly until he fell to the floor. Mbanjwa intervened. The appellant then managed to rise to his feet and retreated towards the pool table but was pursued by the assailants. As he, Mbanjwa, turned his back on them to get behind the bar counter, he heard several gun shots. He turned only to see the appellant shooting at his assailants. The deceased was struck by the bullets, stumbled out of the bar and fell outside the bar where he was certified dead by the paramedics some three hours later.

and

[8] The appellant testified that the deceased and his group found him at the bar. A scuffle erupted between Dennis and the security guard on duty. He intervened. The deceased and Dennis turned on him and assaulted him severely. Whilst he was on the floor the deceased approached him, with his hand in his pocket, uttering the words ‘let us kill this ’. As he got up from the floor, with the deceased more or less ten metres from him, he pulled out his firearm and shot the deceased in quick succession until the latter turned around and fled out of the bar. As he was in a state of shock, confusion and drunkenness he fled the scene. Later, he handed himself over to the police at the local police station. His version was supported in all its material details by Mbanjwa.

The deceased approached him, with his hand in his pocket, uttering the words "let us kill this "
This case is nothing like Oscars version!
The only thing in common is the defence, putative private defence. Good case to see an example of that law. Doesn't fit Oscars version. No direct threat!

 

[Viper]

I really need to find some references, but I think it proves she had at least a faint pulse when he was moving her through the room if the blood spatter pattern indicates pulsatile spurts/spatters. She may have been close to brain dead for a while with enough basal centers still functioning for those last heartbeats... :-(

Thank you for sharing! You have been tasked to consider this from a clinical perspective related to her time of death. But if you consider the arterial spurting" from a physical manipulation of her body, being carried about the house and the compressions and decompressions as that is occurring, can those account for causing the blood to move through her body and exit her gunshot wounds in spurts at the bedside, near the exit of OPs bedroom, and over the staircase railing after she was already dead? Those three areas are where the blood is found, it is not on the walls all along the path. THANKS!

 

[TorisMom003]

Here ya go

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Trial Discussion Thread #29

Quoting for Crasshopper

 

[TorisMom003]

The deceased approached him, with his hand in his pocket, uttering the words "let us kill this "
This case is nothing like Oscars version!
The only thing in common is the defence, putative private defence. Good case to see an example of that law. Doesn't fit Oscars version. No direct threat!

Exactly. I can see why that case was appealed. And the only thing that I see similar in that one and this one is that both guns were Parabellums. But they weren't even the same model.

 

[Hatfield]

Thank you for sharing! You have been tasked to consider this from a clinical perspective related to her time of death. But if you consider the arterial spurting" from a physical manipulation of her body, being carried about the house and the compressions and decompressions as that is occurring, can those account for causing the blood to move through her body and exit her gunshot wounds in spurts at the bedside, near the exit of OPs bedroom, and over the staircase railing after she was already dead? Those three areas are where the blood is found, it is not on the walls all along the path. THANKS!

You explained well what I was thinking. I could see where OP applying pressure to certain parts of her body would make blood squirt out even if she was dead. It could look like she spurted it out with a heartbeat when it really was him pressing on areas that forced more blood to spurt out a wound.

 

[Emz73]

Exactly. I can see why that case was appealed. And the only thing that I see similar in that one and this one is that both guns were Parabellums. But they weren't even the same model.

And one was more like a machine gun. ( I know nothing about guns)
Cape town crim. Said the same yesterday but I didn't read the case. Just took it she knew what she was talking about.

 

[crasshopper]

Thank you for sharing! You have been tasked to consider this from a clinical perspective related to her time of death. But if you consider the arterial spurting" from a physical manipulation of her body, being carried about the house and the compressions and decompressions as that is occurring, can those account for causing the blood to move through her body and exit her gunshot wounds in spurts at the bedside, near the exit of OPs bedroom, and over the staircase railing after she was already dead? Those three areas are where the blood is found, it is not on the walls all along the path. THANKS!

Sadly, I do not believe that is possible. You really need some function of the vasomotor center and some maintained blood pressure to get spurts.

Death would cause the complete relaxation of the blood vessels and near immediate triggering of clotting(which takes a few minutes- minutes OP claims he was using the bat to get the door open) would change blood viscosity but allow some leakage, dripping from gravity and compression but that appearance is very different from blood spatter/arterial spray and spurts.

What you can perhaps clarify for me is whether the forensic team or a witness determined if it was definitely arterial spurts or high velocity spatter. Forgive my ignorance regarding this. If it was just high velocity or spatter a circumstance like OP returning to the room with the bloody bat and swing it in anger or frustration could explain it. We have no evidence of this and that is unlikely the cause but if you could point me to the specific analysis of the blood in the bedroom I would love it. My recollection was arterial but that might have been from the posts! Thanks

 

[Hatfield]

And one was more like a machine gun. ( I know nothing about guns)
Cape town crim. Said the same yesterday but I didn't read the case. Just took it she knew what she was talking about.

You are correct. It is very important to know the difference between a "semi-automatic" and a "fully automatic" weapon. The 2 guns were different in this regard.

The reason people get confused is because a lot of people make the mistake and instead of calling Semi-automatics they call them automatics which they are not.

Semi-automatic = 1 trigger pull = 1 bullet fired

Fully-automatic = 1 trigger pull = can fire multiple bullets

It gets even more confusing because some fully automatic weapons can have settings that allow them to fire just 1 shot for each trigger pull or a burst of 3 shots or unload the whole magazine until finger is lifted off trigger.

OP had a semi-auto and his type could only fire 1 bullet with each trigger pulled. Its important to also realize that the user can do this very rapidly though. You can usually fire 4 rounds well under 4 seconds. Like maybe 2.5 seconds or even less possibly.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

.. crikey, I hadn't read much further down that article .. http://www.citypress.co.za/news/oscar-finds-new-love/ it also says



.. and ..



Now, I realise that ST may have cause to exaggerate somewhat, but I doubt very much that her mother does.

By the sounds of it OP does seem to have big anger issues.
I know ST has been dismissed as a woman scorned in terms of giving testimony but I feel she will just be mightily relieved that it was not her that was shot . In the Video that Torismom posted today she seemed very pleasant and I can't see why she would want to lie on the stand to punish OP however their relationship ended particularly when she had been out with someone else herself .
It will be interesting to see the judges take on the gun charges .

 

[crasshopper]

Only a large transected or slashed artery like the aorta or carotid artery would eject blood from immediate post mortem firm compression. Again, this is unlikely because it would require a pinhole or tiny cut, tear in the carotid and some force. In the case of the aorta, it is deep in the abdominal cavity and logistically not relevant.

 

[DebinGA]

BIB. Actually the judge noted that the shooter fired one time, but his gun was fully automatic so it fired multiple bullets with one pull of the trigger.

OP intentionally pulled the trigger four times intentionally trying to fire all four rounds, with a pause after he fired the first bullet.

Ballistics show OP repositioned himself during the pause, with the last three shots occurring from a different angle than the first... iirc.

 

[Viper]

Sadly, I do not believe that is possible. You really need some function of the vasomotor center and some maintained blood pressure to get spurts.

Death would cause the complete relaxation of the blood vessels and near immediate triggering of clotting(which takes a few minutes- minutes OP claims he was using the bat to get the door open) would change blood viscosity but allow some leakage, dripping from gravity and compression but that appearance is very different from blood spatter/arterial spray and spurts.

What you can perhaps clarify for me is whether the forensic team or a witness determined if it was definitely arterial spurts or high velocity spatter. Forgive my ignorance regarding this. If it was just high velocity or spatter a circumstance like OP returning to the room with the bloody bat and swing it in anger or frustration could explain it. We have no evidence of this and that is unlikely the cause but if you could point me to the specific analysis of the blood in the bedroom I would love it. My recollection was arterial but that might have been from the posts! Thanks

Arterial Spurt was said rather matter of factly by the blood spatter expert regarding the blood over the headboard.

Nel questioned OP about whether he initially took Reeva near the bed and OP said he did not.

If you look at the limited locations of where blood is found on the walls and the few drops over the railing it does not match up with arterial spatter, because it is on two different sides of Reeva. On the left (after exiting the bedroom) and on the right (over the staircase railing). So it could easily be cast-off from reeve as OP makes quick turns: turning back, changing his mind and turning around, etc...

 

[Rumpole]

I simply can't read the mind of the judge. Her political pressures one way or the other, her sympathies for Reeva and her family, her sympathies for Oscar and his family, her wisdom and expertise that she brings to the bench, all the evidence which she and her assessors will have to wade through, all the different possible charges she must consider, will make her decision difficult at best.

True, there is much that could factor in to the Judge's deliberations, and final decision, but.....

As we often hear when Judges recite Jury instructions...
The Judicial process requires that outside pressures (political etc) are put to one side. That the evidence and testimony is viewed without reference to emotion and sympathy for the victim (or defendant). That the decision is NOT based on opinions, for example preferences for the attorneys on either side.
A Judge, even more so than jury members, should be able to maintain the position of "Innocent until proven guilty" A judge should know, and should hold the State to the heavy burden that the STATE alone has, to prove it's case "Beyond Reasonable doubt".
From what little I have heard from this Judge, she does seem to me to be smart and is paying attention to all the testimony and evidence. We can't ask for much more than that at this stage. I assume that she is well versed in SA law and will apply that. I just hope that she is above any outside "political" pressure, and I have faith that she will deliberate on the evidence within the confines of "Innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt"

 

[minor4th]

Sadly, I do not believe that is possible. You really need some function of the vasomotor center and some maintained blood pressure to get spurts.

Death would cause the complete relaxation of the blood vessels and near immediate triggering of clotting(which takes a few minutes- minutes OP claims he was using the bat to get the door open) would change blood viscosity but allow some leakage, dripping from gravity and compression but that appearance is very different from blood spatter/arterial spray and spurts.

What you can perhaps clarify for me is whether the forensic team or a witness determined if it was definitely arterial spurts or high velocity spatter. Forgive my ignorance regarding this. If it was just high velocity or spatter a circumstance like OP returning to the room with the bloody bat and swing it in anger or frustration could explain it. We have no evidence of this and that is unlikely the cause but if you could point me to the specific analysis of the blood in the bedroom I would love it. My recollection was arterial but that might have been from the posts! Thanks

The State's expert said it was arterial spurts, but he was not a doctor IIRC, he was the forensic blood spatter analyst.

Edit: Sorry, I'm talking only of the blood on the stairs and dripping down from the stairs. He did not say what the blood by the bed was.

 

[whiterum]

Ballistics show OP repositioned himself during the pause, with the last three shots occurring from a different angle than the first... iirc.

Supporting the evidence that one bullet casing was separate from the other three found on the Bathroom floor.

 

[crasshopper]

Thanks for your post .
Just wondered why there was not more blood on the toilet floor considering the severed artery to the arm as well as the hip injury . The bleeding from the head wound could have ran down the pan but not the other injuries.
Or do you think the blood loss on the floor looks as you would expect.
Also how quickly do the eyes turn cloudy after death . This was something that Dr stipps noted when he examined Reeva .
TIA

Well to answer part of that, near the time of death your body releases a lot of insulin and other factors which completely dilate your capillary bed (which holds way more than your blood volume), makes the capillary bed "leaky" allowing more of the plasma out of the intravascular blood and the eventual actual seeping of blood cells into the extravascular space which contributes to "lividity."

So nearly dead she would NOT have exsanguinated as much as someone with an intact brainstem or no head injury. Assuming, which I do, that her limbs were hit first, in the seconds before the head shot, the bodies response was to vasoconstrict arteries to stem blood loss, just a tidbit there.