Trial Discussion Thread #30

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  • #1,101
Well there you go all along in my simplicity I thought the State had the burden of proving that Oscar was guilty of either premeditated murder, culpable homicide or something along those lines. Wait....

You're mistaken in your understanding of how the law works.

This is what's called a prima facie case. The defendant has admitted to shooting and killing the victim.

The defendant now has the burden of proof to show why the killing of the victim falls into one of the exemptions of the murder laws.

Why do you think he testified?
 
  • #1,102
Wow, that would really impede any effort to plan a defense.

If the defendant was innocent, there would be little need to "plan" a defense.

I'm curious, what kind of law do you practice? Are you a criminal attorney?
 
  • #1,103
Well, he wouldn't flee anyway because he believes in his own mind that he is innocent (i.e. he now believes his own lie) .. he is desperate to prove his innocence. This is classic abuser behaviour .. just like how my abuser never, ever fled the scene whenever I called the police, and I could never quite understand why to start off with. He just used to sit and wait for them to come, and then would be all polite and friendly with them .. I always used to think that if that were me, I would've b*ggered off before they got there, but then of course, that would prove guilt if he was to have fled the scene and he always wanted to make sure that he was seen by the police to be in the clear, when he clearly wasn't (and the police weren't stupid either, because they knew, each and every time that it was him who was the problem .. they are trained in this, thank god).

Then I don't understand why you said it was an error to grant him bail. Bail is not a punishment - it's meant to secure an accused's appearance at trial.
 
  • #1,104
If the defendant was innocent, there would be little need to "plan" a defense.

I'm curious, what kind of law do you practice? Are you a criminal attorney?

You couldn't be more wrong about that.
 
  • #1,105
Most of us have a default fight/flight mode. I know when I get a fright I get extremely angry.

Fight. Flight. Freeze. Fawn. These are acute stress responses to fear and terror. A burst of adrenaline prepares our bodies to run, hide, fight or placate. Pupils dilate. Digestion slows. Muscles get more blood in preparation for action.

The name of the response (fight/flight/etc) describes the dominant emotional and physical reaction a person experiences in response to fear and terror.

If we experience a fight reaction it means the dominant emotion we feel in response to fear is anger and aggression, and so we fight. Flight means the dominant emotion is panic and we will run away and leap over a tall fence to escape. Freeze means you can't move. Fawn means you try to placate the aggressor.

Let's look at what OP tells us about that night.

OP says he felt panic and terror and fear. These are the dominant emotions we expect in either a freeze- or flight response. So, if we believe him, we'd expect him to freeze or run away. Because he never mentions feeling anger or aggression. So, by his own testimony, he did not experience the fight response.

But look at his actions. He got a gun. Moved toward the danger. Shot the so called attacker. He fought. A fight response.

The point is that there is a glaring discrepancy between what he tells us he felt that night and what he actually did.

For some reason he does not want to admit to feeling any anger or aggression. Which, if you believe him that there was no argument between him and Reeva, is a very odd reaction indeed.

I will put it to you that every brave man who has ever fought in a war has felt panic, fear, terror, and the wish to flee. But they don't do that, they don't run from the enemy, they face him and fight in spite of this.

That is what courage is--feeling scared to death but meeting the challenge anyway, a situation that would be very familiar to a top athlete.
 
  • #1,106
I will put it to you that every brave man who has ever fought in a war has felt panic, fear, terror, and the wish to flee. But they don't do that, they don't run from the enemy, they face him and fight in spite of this.

That is what courage is--feeling scared to death but meeting the challenge anyway, a situation that would be very familiar to a top athlete.

Are you seriously comparing a layman gunning his trapped girlfriend down to military fighting combat?!?!
 
  • #1,107
You're mistaken in your understanding of how the law works.

This is what's called a prima facie case. The defendant has admitted to shooting and killing the victim.

The defendant now has the burden of proof to show why the killing of the victim falls into one of the exemptions of the murder laws.

Why do you think he testified?




Oscar testified because he had no other viable option.

The state has to prove that Reeva’s death was not a case of putative defense. It is the prosecution that is trying to secure a conviction.

Why do you think there is a prosecutor?
 
  • #1,108
If the defendant was innocent, there would be little need to "plan" a defense.

I'm curious, what kind of law do you practice? Are you a criminal attorney?


Surely you are not suggesting that there are no innocent people in jail?
 
  • #1,109
Sorry about that TD.

I am aware that he dated beautiful young blondes, I am not a celebrity watcher by any stretch of the imagination but it seems fairly common on the tabloids in the front of the grocery store to see young beautiful blonde women. In this I don't think Oscar is atypical, superficial perhaps but nothing nefarious.


Before Oscar killed Reeva I was interested in him as a runner and what he did for the disabled community.


I am relatively new to the case.

My journey to a crime forum is probably different than many (maybe not) but it is not an interest in crime that brought me here.

I do find this case interesting and the people and knowledge here quite intriguing and vast.


Serious question:

What has OP done for the "disabled community"? Little is reported about OP here (Australia), people generally don't seem that interested in him. I know that he competed in the Olympics against able-bodied runners. However, I'm unaware what flow-on has resulted from this to help other people with disabilities.
 
  • #1,110
I believe he did have all of those bail conditions relaxed. The one I thought was particularly poor was the fact that he was allowed to approach his neighbours "because they might testify against him". Isn't that called witness tampering in this country?

BBM. According to the above post, while out on Bail "... he was allowed to approach his neighbours "because they might testify against him". Isn't that called witness tampering?..."

:ohwow:
 
  • #1,111
I will put it to you that every brave man who has ever fought in a war has felt panic, fear, terror, and the wish to flee. But they don't do that, they don't run from the enemy, they face him and fight in spite of this.

That is what courage is--feeling scared to death but meeting the challenge anyway, a situation that would be very familiar to a top athlete.
It must be my bedtime because I really do take issue with comparing someone on trial for murdering his girlfriend to courageous and brave soldiers. Might be that I am a Vet's daughter. I honestly don't know if this is more disturbing...or comparing him to a 10 year old shooter protecting his babysitter.

Accident or not...Oscar did nothing brave or courageous by firing four highly lethal bullets into a closed door, not knowing who or what was beyond it. A much loved young woman lost her life because of his 'bravery and courage'.
 
  • #1,112
It must be my bedtime because I really do take issue with comparing someone on trial for murdering his girlfriend to courageous and brave soldiers. Might be that I am a Vet's daughter. I honestly don't know if this is more disturbing...or comparing him to a 10 year old shooter protecting his babysitter.

Accident or not...Oscar did nothing brave or courageous by firing four highly lethal bullets into a closed door, not knowing who or what was beyond it. A much loved young woman lost her life because of his 'bravery and courage'.


Thank you, I totally agree.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • #1,113
Serious question:

What has OP done for the "disabled community"? Little is reported about OP here (Australia), people generally don't seem that interested in him. I know that he competed in the Olympics against able-bodied runners. However, I'm unaware what flow-on has resulted from this to help other people with disabilities.



Here in the states there were different stories about young amputees being inspired by him. His prominence in the field of running and his fight to be allowed to compete with able-bodied athletes in the Olympics was very inspirational.
 
  • #1,114
Are you seriously comparing a layman gunning his trapped girlfriend down to military fighting combat?!?!

well, I wasn't actually thinking of him as 'a layman gunning his trapped girlfriend down.' lol

That I will admit to.
 
  • #1,115
BBM. According to the above post, while out on Bail "... he was allowed to approach his neighbours "because they might testify against him". Isn't that called witness tampering?..."

:ohwow:

Here's what the article actually says:

They [OP's lawyers] have pointed out that it’s unreasonable for Oscar to not be allowed to talk to his neighbours at the Silverwoods Country Estate.

Many of his neighbours will be called to testify about the night Reeva, 29, died.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/oscar-s-uncle-wants-to-take-him-to-moz-1.1484657#.U1XKNOZdWzc

It does not say OP wants to interfere with witnesses who are going to testify against him.
 
  • #1,116
It must be my bedtime because I really do take issue with comparing someone on trial for murdering his girlfriend to courageous and brave soldiers. Might be that I am a Vet's daughter. I honestly don't know if this is more disturbing...or comparing him to a 10 year old shooter protecting his babysitter.

Accident or not...Oscar did nothing brave or courageous by firing four highly lethal bullets into a closed door, not knowing who or what was beyond it. A much loved young woman lost her life because of his 'bravery and courage'.

You have already made up your mind about him and not in a positive way.

I have yet to see the prosecution offer any evidence that he did what he is accused with doing.

I noticed in another post you say the prosecutor "intimated" that the earlier bangs were the bat. I never saw him intimate or state any such thing. I assume you used the word "intimate" because the prosecutor didn't state it outright. If you could direct me to where the prosecutor places the earlier bangs as bat strikes, I would be interested to see it.
 
  • #1,117
The DT talking to potential witnesses is not the same as the accused talking directly to them. And I'm of the opinion that, no, the accused should not for a whole host of reasons.

Excerpt from Post by Soozieqtips No:1034
"BBM - exactly. Can you imagine how intimidating it would for witnesses if someone as powerful as OP tried to persuade them to change their minds about testifying?..."

I'm of the same opinion.
 
  • #1,118
And post head injury her cardiac activity was so weak that this loss wasn't as great as expected? It doesn't make sense to me either and I'm not going to try to make things fit, I distinctly remember reading the heart muscle was pale which was noted as consistent with significant blood loss and being a bit surprised, which is why i remembered it. But I agree that arterial spurting is not possible without a beating heart. I'm not a pathologist either, maybe one will turn up.

Edited to add : after that head injury Reeva was effectively dead. She would have been blue, lifeless and still. Some minutes of weak, likely poorly coordinated heart muscle contraction is not that controversial.

I'm glad we agree, excellent earlier post btw. I also wanted to thank everyone for the interesting debate.

Sadly, the major limitation remains that Reeva's autopsy report was never made available and the pathologists testimony was not aired nor a transcript made available. We are left with reporters' summaries.

The brain areas directly damaged are critical to our understanding and conclusions and to my knowledge none of us know the details of her brain injury, just the report that it was incapacitating and (eventually?) fatal. Was it a shot through the cortex, midbrain or brain stem or some permutation. Makes a huge difference. She was also sumultaneously exsanguinating from her other wounds which should hasten death.

What is an accepted medical fact I personally heard this from Cyril Wecht, a noted medical examiner and found several references inluding in the journal 'Forensic Medicine,' no heart beat no arterial spurt.


Notes from 'Essential Forensic Biology' By Alan Gunn

It should be remembered that bleeding takes place both internally and externally so the amount of blood surrounding a body may not reflect the amount actually lost.

Wounds, after death do not bleed profusely because the heart
is no longer beating and blood pressure is not maintained. Blood from even a severed artery therefore trickles out as a consequence of gravity rather than spurting.

...I would conclude from the latter that squeezing or compressing an injured limb with said injured artery, would consequently not yield an arterial pattern, although it might 'eject' blood.


CORRECTION from an earlier post:
Unlike at the wound site, initially blood remains liquid within the circulatory system after death, rather than coagulating.

I have no idea what happened maybe the blood in the bedroom & below the stairs is the first case of some type of mimic of arterial spurt, but as is often said- If It Looks Like A Horse, Walks Like A Horse and Sounds Like A Horse, It's Probably Not A Zebra.

I hope, PlayItCloseToTheVest Gerrie Nel, will be able to tie it all together. He may be waiting for the pertinent defense experts to testify, if they have one.

I'm going to catch up on on the posts I've missed :)
 
  • #1,119
Thank you Minor :-)
 
  • #1,120
If the defendant was innocent, there would be little need to "plan" a defense.

I'm curious, what kind of law do you practice? Are you a criminal attorney?

You couldn't be more wrong about that.

Surely you are not suggesting that there are no innocent people in jail?

"Plan" was put into quotes for a reason, I believe. If a person is innocent then there is no need to "plan" a defense as they would tell the truth on the stand followed by their supporting evidence that proves they are innocent. However, if someone is guilty then they do need to PLAN a defense, one that sounds plausible and that the judge/jury will accept as the truth.

Of course innocent people have been found guilty before just as guilty people have been found not guilty before. The difference between the two groups could be the defense that was "planned" instead of just defending themselves with the truth and/or the judge/jury believing or not believing their defense.

The way that OP has testified on the stand, and what has been pointed out by Nel, is that he has tailored his version to fit what he knows the evidence shows. OP admitted to reading all of the pre trial material that he could. OP has changed his version three times now, the latest version while on the stand. THAT is an example of a "planned" defense, IMO.

And I'm sure if I am wrong with my above statements that Greater Than will tell us. And please feel free to do so, Greater Than, if I am wrong!

MOO
 
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