Trial Discussion Thread #31

[steveml]

German dogs are exceptional. In terms of working and guarding(protection/manwork etc, nothing on the planet comes close, ok the Dutch and Belgian lines in Malinois.

Protection and working dogs however, Germany will reign supreme (I'm incredibly biased though) :blushing:

Do you have a German Shepherd the same as Viper?

 

[Ncl1968]

Hmmm... black bags and rope.. Oscar's budget ambulance service

 

[jay-jay]

It's my understanding the prosecution has to give the defense everything the prosecution intends on using, whereas the defense is able to keep everything they intend to use, up their sleeve.

~snipped~

.. yes, that's right .. what I mean is that it doesn't have to be brought out in the actual trial itself, only if the defence want to refute it .. and the judge will have all of it, even if it's not actually touched on in court. At least that's how I thought it worked, anyway.

 

[lisasalinger]

Thank you!

If you Google Juror13 Blog you should be find Lisa's blog. She has practically everything there including tons of images. There are a couple of images of Reeva, her head and face. She looks very beautiful despite the injuries; but she also does not look as though she lost very much blood at all. Check it out when you have time.

Thanks, Viper

One thing I plan to do this week is go back and watch Mrs. Stipp's testimony and will update my blog post for that day.

I think I missed some important things there, in particular the toilet room light. Oldwage's cross-exam was so obnoxious to me that I think I zoned out.

 

[Viper]

Do you have a German Shepherd the same as Viper?

LOL!!' No, I drive an SRT10 Dodge Viper convertible, triple black with red Mamba limited edition interior accents. My avatar is the car's emblem.

My GSD is named Bella, my oldest daughter gave her that name. She's about 11 years old now so she has mellowed a tiny bit, enough to permit strangers to approach when we take her for walks without going in to Combat Mode anymore, thankfully!

ETA: Oops. Looks like I accidentally misread that post and replied to a question addressed to someone else.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Oh me too. That was a major hinky meter rising moment. For me, it would have possibly bolstered being able to believe him about not realising she'd gotten out of bed to go to the bedroom. But he was adamant there was no way she could have gone downstairs while he was asleep? Even though it may also have made the gastric emptying testimony work in his favour? And then, I have to start pondering why he's so adamant...

Like...did he already know his pathologist was disputing the gastric emptying testimony so he tailored his testimony? Did Reeva actually know the alarm code at all? Because Oscar certainly didn't know when asked. (And btw, how do you honestly not know that?) Had she locked herself in the bathroom after having been locked in the bedroom - hoping he'd cool off? Or is it just to try to prove they were asleep and not awake fighting?

In the same vein...I have to question why the defence insisting the first bangs were the gunshots when conceding they were at 3:17 better fits the evidence. And then, I have to start pondering why they're so adamant....

ETA: I forgot Botha was before Oscar! That means he'd already heard Botha dispute Saayman's gastric emptying.

I agree and am so dizzy about the whole thing .
There are just so many odd things about OP's version . Like also the fact that the defence have been at pains to point out Reeva was on the right hand side of the bed that night . If she had been on the left which all material evidence seems to support ,his story would have been that bit easier to accept because she wouldn't have had to walk so far to get out of his sight . I think I would still find it unlikely but not as unlikely .
There are probably more things like that so will post them as I think of them .

 

[lisasalinger]

I'm actually looking forward to hearing from Wolmarans. I think Womarans is the scream witness, no?

I do hope we get to see the animation too!

Wolmarans is ballistics. I don't think he'd have anything to do with screams. They have a good music producer for that! :floorlaugh:

I want to hear more about the retesting of the gunfire sounds. That whole episode sounds so shady to me.

I do not believe at all that they went back to retest because of gun jamming. I think they retested because of their failed double tap story.

 

[jay-jay]

I agree and am so dizzy about the whole thing .
There are just so many odd things about OP's version . Like also the fact that the defence have been at pains to point out Reeva was on the right hand side of the bed that night . If she had been on the left which all material evidence seems to support ,his story would have been that bit easier to accept because she wouldn't have had to walk so far to get out of his sight . I think I would still find it unlikely but not as unlikely .
There are probably more things like that so will post them as I think of them .

.. but then OP, in his version, had to put her on the right because it was on the left of the bed where he went down and got his gun from underneath (so he says) and in which case, that would've meant that he ought to have seen her if she was on the left .. he had to put her on the right, to make it sound more plausible that he hadn't seen her.

 

[crasshopper]

If that is your working theory and I and I have no reason to doubt it as I can barely talk about blood let alone look for very long at the graphic pictures, then where is all of Reeva's blood? If Reeva had say 1.3 gallons of blood in her body where did it go?

Is this a plausible theory or just me displaying my ignorance of human anatomy? Is it it possible that Reeva's head wound bled profusely into the toilet and that much of her blood was flushed away, even her broken arm logistically speaking could have bled into the toilet. Probable? No course not, but possible according to the law of physics but I don't know if it is anatomically possible.

Thanks

Reeva was not completely exsangiunated, the way let's say cattle is after certain religious slaughter. She suffered severe blood loss. She was a petite woman, lets say she had about 4.5 L of blood volume, so losing 25-30% from her limb injuries would mean you only need 1.5 L of blood on the floor. I don't think the pictures are inconsistent with such an amount.

Muscle/heart, organs, skin etc would be pale because the blood left in her body doesn't perfuse them. When you are seriously bleeding your body preferentially shunts blood to your head/brain and heart to promote survival. Other organs get minimal perfusion. You still have blood flow through major arteries to the limbs, until time after her brain injury when the process of death started and her vasomotor center either immediately or eventually would have been compromised. Without knowing what part of the brain was destroyed we can't speculate the time involved. Any residual cardiac activity( which I believe she had) is weak but you could still get spurting from her injured artery in the arm. I don't know if a major artery was transected or partially torn in the hip.


NOW I will bring up bleeding into tissues which is not what is classically referred to as "internal bleeding." A good example of internal bleeding is a GI ulcer eroding a vessel in your abdomen, and you are bleeding inside your body without the blood escaping out through a wound.

Bleeding into tissues DID occur at Reeva's wounds. You cut a rare steak and there is blood oozing from the many capillaries cut and the blood in the tissues. You are not cutting through a major artery in that steak and even though a lot of blood was removed during processing, it still oozes. Reeva had large wounds and while alive was losing blood through those even though the body tries to combat this by vasoconstricting and through any major vessels injured and to my knowledge the arm was the only one described.

Anywho, per Sorryl Skye's post you can see that in patients without a brain injury even the loss of 30% can be catastrophic but that is still only about 1.5 L.

I could go on but books could be written and have been on these matters.



I don't think there is that much if any "missing" blood.

 

[sleuth-d-]

I think for this you have to explore what her alternatives were if they were in the heat of an argument.

Oscar was asked if she knew the alarm code to deactivate it. He said he didn't know. The bedroom door was locked and the alarm set - we do not know if she was even able to leave the bedroom. We don't know if she even had access to the key for the bedroom door, let alone the code. So...where was she meant to go? The toilet was the only place she could go to have something between them. A locked door would have provided an illusion of safety...maybe hoping he would calm down or debating whether she should call the police. Maybe even considering whether she could jump from the window if her phone didn't make it in the toilet with her? (Jeans, anyone? Phone on bathroom floor?) Or hoping someone outside might respond?

15 minutes, when someone is raging at you, feels like forever and seconds all at the same time. I really don't think it's that long, but I'm basing that on personal experience. My ex could quite easily go into a rage lasting three times that or longer - and did. Once he broke through a door to get to me, with bare hands. I've no doubt had he had his gun at the time, he wouldn't have bothered to break the door down. That took at least 10 minutes (though I didn't have a stopwatch. And please don't ask why I didn't call police because I just don't know. My BIL, just coming home, tackled him literally just as he was approaching me).

Also...if I'm assuming he was mightily angry and wanted to get to her - to either convince her or intimidate her - I really think if he could have gotten to her by any other means he would have. Breaking the door down wasn't working - or beating on it wasn't having the desired effect of her coming out...she was screaming more loudly...and he had to act. It's also what makes me think he didn't have the key for the toilet.

The thing that bothers me the absolute most in this case...because I believe as I do...is that Reeva knew and her last moments were absolutely petrifying. And all those that love her will spend every moment of every day for the rest of their lives knowing that.

JMO and FWIW

that last sentence is indeed harrowing if true.

just a 'imo' comment about the locked bedroom door [with cricket bat across it]... this is still within 'op versioning'. it wasn't found locked, indeed quite the opposite, it was found damaged.

also as the alarm didn't sound at any time, and op can't remember / 'did the wooly thinking stunt' about activating/de-activating - it was probably never set. again imo.

 

[BritsKate]

That's what is so aggravating - no matter which perspective I view it, I run into obstacles. I can't make sense of the state's case and at the same time I believe Oscar is not telling the complete truth and is hiding something.

I'll admit I can't precisely piece together every single moment from 6pm to 3:20am even in the State's case. Not everything is fully explained and tied up for me with a pretty bow. But then I really can't expect it to be a full and complete account when the State is forced to speculate.

'Small' things - like not knowing what caused an argument pale in comparison when I'm forced to wonder how Reeva could possibly have died shortly after 3am, kwim?

 

[LambChop]

I have not been following this trial much but one thing that sticks out as unusual is that OP heads for the bathroom door but he thinks Reeva is in the bed. Since the bed is between the bedroom door and the bath why would he not have alerted her first and made sure she was out of the room calling the emergency number before shooting. Anyone in the water closet could have shot her while she was in the bed. There was nowhere for OP to go, no place for him to hide. OP had no idea how many were in the room and after shooting how many would come out shooting had they not yet entered through the window.

This part has made no sense to me. Just not a normal common sense reaction you would expect. But that is jmo.

 

[Ncl1968]

Now back to the black bags and rope that's bothering me.. what if he intended to hide the body in a panic git the bags and rope ready then called or text a "friend " for help.. that friend then told op now way...
That's my theory on the missing 5th phone...

 

[Gbtaketwo]

.. but then OP, in his version, had to put her on the right because it was on the left of the bed where he went down and got his gun from underneath (so he says) and in which case, that would've meant that he ought to have seen her if she was on the left .. he had to put her on the right, to make it sound more plausible that he hadn't seen her.

Ah yes I thought exactly the same thing but then looked again at the physical evidence . There was the other holster and gun magazine on the right hand side of the bed so I wouldn't have thought a thing of he had said it was on the right hand side so that is when I had another dizzy episode.
To me his version would have seemed to fit better that Reeva had been on the left and the gun on the right .
Still can't figure this out and find it quite bizarre and am totally puzzled .
It seems almost like what James 83 said earlier today think of anything OP say and then look at the opposite .
The other thing that puzzles me is why he said Reeva had already changed into her PJ's . She didn't seem to be in PJ's so maybe this is where the state are going in terms of the clothes query ?

 

[lisasalinger]

I disagree with that; he could stand right up against the door and peer in and shoot. And why would he need to see anyway? Shooting 4 shots into that tiny area - especially shooting towards their core, which it looks like he was doing (roughly) - is almost certainly going to kill the person.

BBM

Your bolded part - he denied doing that. He claims he fired those shots off without any control or thought process whatsoever. So right there it means you admit he was lying.

Why does somebody aim when they are shooting? Because they want to hit their target.

Why do they want to hit their target 4 times? Because they want to kill them.

Now add in who he wanted to kill. Based on the totality of his evidence about the events leading up to the shots, in my mind, it's IMPOSSIBLE that he didn't know Reeva was in there. His lies tell the story quite beautifully.

Reeva was standing facing that door, pleading with OP to stop. Screaming blood-curdling screams that the neighbors heard quite clearly.

 

[sleuth-d-]

.. but then OP, in his version, had to put her on the right because it was on the left of the bed where he went down and got his gun from underneath (so he says) and in which case, that would've meant that he ought to have seen her if she was on the left .. he had to put her on the right, to make it sound more plausible that he hadn't seen her.

that does seem very strange.

looking at the motor boat incident [day/night][high water]
tasha's gun
the fans
the window slamming
the door slamming

it is almost like he has a total aversion for the truth. or believes the best way to disguise his story, is to swap everything.

it has also crossed my mind that there is a certain cruel pleasure, in making up the most ridiculous defence story, and then sitting there watching all the police running around him trying to fathom it out*.

*a bit like some of the tasks set on here, along the lines of "well, that didn't happen - go away, look through 40 hours of youtube video of vermeulen [et al] and show me the answers".

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Now back to the black bags and rope that's bothering me.. what if he intended to hide the body in a panic git the bags and rope ready then called or text a "friend " for help.. that friend then told op now way...
That's my theory on the missing 5th phone...

A lot of FM have thoughts about that . But I just don't like to think about as it is just too horrible to think about .
( meaning here he might never have been brought to court )

 

[Carmelita]

Am so pleased somebody else mentioned the dogs ... this is an aspect that has been bothering me from the get go, and yet it's never been mentioned. I don't think it's irrelevant at all. Can anyone relate to how their dogs react when there's anything out of the ordinary within their territory?

My dog is a yapper (7 pounds) she barks at many things.

Oscar's dogs seem to be rather docile, there is more than one picture of the outside of Oscars's house and the dogs are in the picture seemingly not bothered by a stranger being in their yard.


Just an observation.

 

[liesbeth]

I just wanted to thank you for all your contributions. It is very much appreciated, as you live in South Africa, that you take the time to share your observations and knowledge with all of us, who may sometimes find it difficult to navigate a very unfamiliar criminal justice system. Really, thank you so much!

Thank you for taking the time to tell me this, BritsKate. You made my day.

 

[crasshopper]

Ever use the expression, "This is like herding cats...?" That is what this seems like to me. LOL!!!

Quote from the following link:
Defence advocate Barry Roux asked the colonel if it was possible if blood on Pistorius's hands could have spattered onto walls and other surfaces while in motion.

Van der Nest said it was.

So if Dr. Saymaan is correct in his determination the Reeva died within seconds of being shot through her brain.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/analyst-explains-reeva-s-blood-trail-1.1663753#.U1fg5b-9LTr

VIPER,

Ahhh, so no truce!

Please do me the favor of not responding to my posts to other people on this topic and I will do the same, it should help.

...you may be hearding cat's but hmm I feel like I'm shooting ducks in a barrel