Trial Discussion Thread #31

[soozieqtips]

Hmmm... black bags and rope.. Oscar's budget ambulance service

Black bags, rope and tape. OP's deluxe first aid kit.

 

[44ALLAN]

i always assumed that op took out two or more panels to be able to reach in for the key on the toilet floor... wherever it was on the floor.

this photo only shows one panel removed.
is it generally accepted that only one panel was removed?

http://news.sky.com/story/1097557/pistorius-images-show-bloody-scene-of-killing

On his stumps would he have been able to reach in over the damaged door and reach a key on the floor?
Always stumped me that one............no pun intended at all !
Would he have been able to do that or is it one of Nels...............'smoking guns' to wrap up with?

 

[JuneBug67]

If his loud crying can sound like a woman, then it's also possible his distressed screams can also sound like a woman.

And it was not clear what Merwe meant by "crying" - it seems it would have to have been something akin to wailing.

And now I've heard Oscar's voice rise dramatically in pitch when he is upset, and that lends more credibility to the notion. We'll see what the sound tests indicate, but in my mind it's a possibility that Oscar's screams sound like a woman.

I think another factor here is that we are all culturally conditioned to think of screaming and crying as most typically coming from a woman, particularly in the dead of night. If the sounds were pitched anywhere on the high side that is going to be the default assumption. Couple that with the knowledge that a woman was killed, and your mind is going to be pretty set on the idea that you heard a woman screaming. Seeing how close Oscar's emotions run to the surface and seeing his poor self control in this area I don't think the notion that he might have been shrieking and wailing is at all ludicrous on its face. Like you, I await the evidence.

 

[minor4th]

That's really close!! The way you were talking I thought he was about 4 metres away kind of round a corner. I've been looking on line at animation versions and most I've seen have him mostly in front of the door then 2,3,4 shots have him more over to his right at an angle.
Didn't look like he was hiding from an intruder (not like they do in the movies, back up against a wall, going forward to shoot then hiding again)

I could have been clearer. He was farther than what the prosecution first alleged, and the ballistics are consistent with OP's account that he was right at that part where the carpet meets the tile in the bathroom.

IIRC Mangena's testimony was that the shots were fired from the same location. I think OP's description of being along the right side wall and kind of shielded by the corner. It may have been 4 meters or more - I don't recall specifically, only that Mangena said the trajectories were consistent with OP being all the way back to the wall

 

[PPKik]

i always assumed that op took out two or more panels to be able to reach in for the key on the toilet floor... wherever it was on the floor.

this photo only shows one panel removed.
is it generally accepted that only one panel was removed?

http://news.sky.com/story/1097557/pistorius-images-show-bloody-scene-of-killing

I have wondered that exact same thing after seeing that photograph. I, too, thought that a part of the door panel was smashed and then more of it was pried open.

Why would the door have been smashed further and by whom, if he was able to somehow reach in and get the key with just that narrow panel missing?

 

[jay-jay]

I think another factor here is that we are all culturally conditioned to think of screaming and crying as most typically coming from a woman, particularly in the dead of night. If the sounds were pitched anywhere on the high side that is going to be the default assumption. Couple that with the knowledge that a woman was killed, and your mind is going to be pretty set on the idea that you heard a woman screaming. Seeing how close Oscar's emotions run to the surface and seeing his poor self control in this area I don't think the notion that he might have been shrieking and wailing is at all ludicrous on its face. Like you, I await the evidence.

.. but that wasn't known by the witness/es until later .. they would already have known in their minds by then that it was a woman they heard, as well as a man.

 

[sleuth-d-]

On his stumps would he have been able to reach in over the damaged door and reach a key on the floor?
Always stumped me that one............no pun intended at all !
Would he have been able to do that or is it one of Nels...............'smoking guns' to wrap up with?

yes, difficult at best, if he was indeed on his stumps.

although looking at the door images, the cross beam is quite low on the toilet door

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/04/01/oscar-pistorius-new-crime-scene-pics/

 

[soozieqtips]

I think another factor here is that we are all culturally conditioned to think of screaming and crying as most typically coming from a woman, particularly in the dead of night. If the sounds were pitched anywhere on the high side that is going to be the default assumption. Couple that with the knowledge that a woman was killed, and your mind is going to be pretty set on the idea that you heard a woman screaming. Seeing how close Oscar's emotions run to the surface and seeing his poor self control in this area I don't think the notion that he might have been shrieking and wailing is at all ludicrous on its face. Like you, I await the evidence.

BBM - They'd already heard a woman screaming before they knew it was a woman who had been murdered. What knowledge are you referring to?

 

[minor4th]

Minor, you have repeatedly made statements along the lines of "both PT and DT are agreed that X" as though that was the end of the matter. It isn't. My post doesn't try to shut you up and isn't acerbic. It requests (OK demands) that you avoid binary presentations where more than two options can in fact be envisaged.

Like everyone I am occasionally exasperated by those who disagree with me but I really had the impression that you were broad-shoudered enough to take a blunt reply and I have respected your intelligence. That's why I am arguing with you. (There is a voluble lady on your side whom I wouldn't bother to argue with and would be careful not to offend.)

You're a bright guy and a lawyer, so you know that even where defence and prosecution agree they may both be mistaken. You also know that, for instance, giving bail to suspects charged with murder is extremely unusual, even when there is no doubt that they will turn up for trial. (I am sure you know that in the UK it was stunning when Bodkin Adams was granted bail on the second half of a multiple murder charge even after having been - erroneously - found Not Guilty of the first charge.)

So, go right ahead and argue as best you can for the innocence of the man whose name I'm not allowed to play games wth, but expect to be pounced on when it seems to me that you are making unfair use of your intelligence and professional knowledge.

The thing is - for purposes of a trial, if the defense and prosecution "agree that x" then that really is the end of the matter. When both sides make those stipulations, they are accepted as uncontested matters, and there is no issue for the trier of fact to decide.

Sure, they might both be mistaken, but the stipulations operate as established facts for purposes of the trial.

 

[jay-jay]

I could have been clearer. He was farther than what the prosecution first alleged, and the ballistics are consistent with OP's account that he was right at that part where the carpet meets the tile in the bathroom.

IIRC Mangena's testimony was that the shots were fired from the same location. I think OP's description of being along the right side wall and kind of shielded by the corner. It may have been 4 meters or more - I don't recall specifically, only that Mangena said the trajectories were consistent with OP being all the way back to the wall

If OP fired four shots from that position, on his stumps, with one hand .. how did he manage to stay in an upright position? He would've fired with his right hand (I've not heard anything to say he is left handed?) and therefore would not have been able to use his right side or the right hand wall, to support himself. A firearm like that is going to have a fair old bit of recoil.

 

[Irisha]

If his loud crying can sound like a woman, then it's also possible his distressed screams can also sound like a woman.

And it was not clear what Merwe meant by "crying" - it seems it would have to have been something akin to wailing.

And now I've heard Oscar's voice rise dramatically in pitch when he is upset, and that lends more credibility to the notion. We'll see what the sound tests indicate, but in my mind it's a possibility that Oscar's screams sound like a woman.

We can only go by what the ear witness's heard that night.

What I heard OP sound like on the stand was nothing more than a public :dramaqueen: behaviour, 1 man pity party IMO


It might just be a cultural thing, but I have never ever heard a man wail/wailing.

 

[DebinGA]

IIRC Mangena put the shot range at no closer than 60 cm and no further than 3 m.

 

[JuneBug67]

.. but that wasn't known by the witness/es until later .. they would already have known in their minds by then that it was a woman they heard, as well as a man.

Yes the initial belief was that it was a woman. But knowing a woman was killed would certainly act as a reinforcement that might eventually lend certainty to testimony that may be misplaced.

 

[PPKik]

If OP fired four shots from that position, on his stumps, with one hand .. how did he manage to stay in an upright position? He would've fired with his right hand (I've not heard anything to say he is left handed?) and therefore would not have been able to use his right side or the right hand wall, to support himself. A firearm like that is going to have a fair old bit of recoil.

He probably fired with both hands. That is typical, not one hand.

Having shot a 9mm many times (not a Taurus Parabellum, but a Glock), I can say with certainty that the recoil of my 9mm is minimal.

OP was used to doing many things on his stumps, so even with recoil, I wouldn't think that would be a problem for his balance.

 

[liesbeth]

Thank you for all of those links Sorrel. But here is the question: Where is the blood? Where did all of that blood go, if Reeva bled to death starting at 3:17 when she was shot and ending at 3:27 when she was placed on the entryway floor? Where is all of the blood?

And regarding the BIB. This is where some are trying to have their cake and eat it too! If Nest's observations are in fact arterial spurt from Reeva, and she was still alive, her heart racing now as OP carries her out and downstairs, then Professor Saymaan's opinions about her time of death are wrong; because he said that after receiving the bullet to her brain Reeva died, she died after 2-3 last breaths.

So which do you prefer to believe, Professor Saymaan or Nest. You cannot believe both, that is impossible.

I think our main problem is that we have to rely on the media for Saayman's exact words.

But if we look at Dr. Jannie Botha's testimony on day 16 we find the following:

The head wound would have been totally incapacitating and she would not have survived long after. There were multiple fractures at the base of her skull but very little blood in her respiratory tract which indicates that she didn’t live long enough for blood to seep down in there. Death happened fairly quickly after sustaining the head injury.

https://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/04/08/oscar-trial-day-16-dr-botha-oscar/

YT link: At about 34:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvXVs2zTytc

 

[minor4th]

IIRC Mangena put the shot range at no closer than 60 cm and no further than 3 m.

Whatever the number was, Mangena said it was consistent with OP's account and set up his laser beam machine in that location.

 

[minor4th]

We can only go by what the ear witness's heard that night.

What I heard OP sound like on the stand was nothing more than a public :dramaqueen: behaviour, 1 man pity party IMO


It might just be a cultural thing, but I have never ever heard a man wail/wailing.

Well, we can go by what the witnesses heard - but saying it was definitely a woman is an interpretation. We can also go by what the forensics indicate and we have OP's account as well.

I thought his voice sounded pretty feminine at a couple of times when he was really distressed. Enough that it's possible it could be mistaken for a female.

We'll see what the sound tests indicate - but given what we have heard so far, I don't think it's fair to say that it's impossible that it was OP screaming in a high pitch that sounded like a woman.

 

[steveml]

BBM - They'd already heard a woman screaming before they knew it was a woman who had been murdered. What knowledge are you referring to?

There's always the potential that hearsay and media opinion can sway your recollection one way or another. Your recollection can change even without any other influences.

Why did Ms. Burger not mention 'blood curdling' screams within her initial statement to the police, yet was so adamant to keep repeating the words to the translator in court?

Her later recollection may well be more precise, but we know something happened that made her feel her initial words were not powerful enough.

People are entitled to change their minds, but there's usually a good reason for it.

 

[Bobbie Elliott]

IMO OP's story of the events of that night sound like it's been workshopped. I have this image of OP sitting around with his team working through the damming evidence (ie most of it) An excerpt from a hypothetical workshop team meeting:

Team member: What are we going to do about the girly screams? Maybe just say all those nosey neighbours lied.

Another team member: Don't think that'll work. We need something better.

Team member: I know what - Oscar, just say you scream like that when you're really scared.

OP: How insulting - I never sound like a girl.

Team member: Oscar, get over it and get with the program.

OP: Harrumph

Other team member: What if they challenge it?

Team member: Ummm??.... I know! ... we record Oscar screaming like a girl!

OP: But I don't scream like girl.

Team member: With our help, you can and you will.

OP: (Sobs) How am I going to remember all of this stuff you want me to do??

Team member: Don't worry Ozzie. If you get stumped, just say you can't remember. You were so stressed out - right?

 

[jay-jay]

Yes the initial belief was that it was a woman. But knowing a woman was killed would certainly act as a reinforcement that might eventually lend certainty to testimony that may be misplaced.

Oh well, in which case you might as well just say/believe any old thing :facepalm: