Trial Discussion Thread #32

[BritsKate]

BBM - what makes you think I have only heard it in a movie? The reason why I say it could've been mocking is because that is exactly the same thing as my abusive ex used to do to me .. and I would imagine there are many others on here who that also resonates with. I'm not even going to address the rest of your post because it's clear that you don't even want to consider that Burger could possibly have heard those sounds, when actually it's highly likely she did.

I think such mocking and sarcasm at the 'height' of an argument is likely unbelievable to most, if not at least many.

It seems to defy logic if he was intent on killing her, he would draw such attention to himself; if he was intent on killing her, that he'd even bother to mock her...but as memory serves me too, one isn't thinking of things like that when seeing 'red'.

Oscar concedes yelling for help. Oscar concedes his 'gunshots' were before 3:17am too. So he concedes Burger's testimony and attempts to explain it. So if the gunshots being before 3:17am is medically impossible, it means he has to in turn concede he yelled for help before fatally shooting Reeva...for whatever reason, however illogical and implausible it may appear.

 

[jay-jay]

RBBM

I really do believe that's a ruse by Roux to make it appear the scene was 'contaminated, tampered, disturbed'. If there were really this elaborate plan to implicate OP, don't you think the police would have buried the evidence that anything even was moved? Some items necessitated moving for photographs (as testified to) but there are photographs of the crime scene before anything was touched...further, the items 'moved' in OP's testimony would had to have been moved by the police before they even knew his version of events. All they knew at the point of the photographs is he'd shot Reeva, whom he'd thought was an intruder. That was it.

I'm not saying the crime scene was kept pristine when obviously it wasn't. I just don't buy this master plan of corruption and ineptitude Roux is trying to sell either.

JMO and FWIW

He definitely has been, and I remember at the time that Van Staden testified, the way that Roux deliberately tried to confuse the issue by mixing up various photos and saying that the crime scene wasn't as shown on those photos .. and it was so obvious to anyone watching that those were the photos that had been taken after the first set of photos, and were taken because things needed to be moved in order to photograph them (i.e. moving the bathroom mat in order to take a photo of Reeva's phone .. there was no other earthly way of him being able to take a photo of that phone without moving the mat) .. but Roux was mixing them all up, and deliberately trying to confuse with regard to the sequence they were taken in, in order to make it appear that the crime scene was contaminated. It was so obvious to me at the time he was doing it because I was quite taken aback by it at the time because I could see exactly how those photos had been taken, and the order in which they had been taken. I thought it really sneaky.

 

[jay-jay]

Roux did exactly the same type of sneaky thing with the ballistics guy, Capt Magena, when he testified about the shot-pause-shot-shot-shot sequence of bullets and Roux sneakily tried to catch him out by almost getting him to confirm a quick succession of all shots, but then Roux kept only saying 'shot shot shot' (i.e. only 3 shots) which the ballistics guy immediately cottoned onto and said words to the effect 'yes, but there was one shot before that .. then a pause'. This was actually one of the main things that confirmed it to me that OP was lying (this was before OP testified himself) and that the DT were having to be sneaky and do things like this because they don't have a true story to be able to catch the PT out with. If the four shots in succession was actually true, then why didn't Roux say 'shot shot shot shot' instead of keep trying to trick Mangena by keep saying 'shot shot shot' (and which Mangena had to correct .. you should've seen the look on his face at the time, too .. it was like 'no, no, no, you don't catch me out like that'. Capt Mangena << -- he knows what he is talking about, that guy.

 

[Bobbie Elliott]

BBM - what makes you think I have only heard it in a movie? The reason why I say it could've been mocking is because that is exactly the same thing as my abusive ex used to do to me .. and I would imagine there are many others on here who that also resonates with. I'm not even going to address the rest of your post because it's clear that you don't even want to consider that Burger could possibly have heard those sounds, when actually it's highly likely she did.

jay-jay - I could agree more. Mocking is a very belittling, cruel and insidious form of emotional abuse. It's often used with the "you read everything into everything" abusive response.

 

[patCee]

Sound resonates late at night and the early hours of the morning. It's 12.40 am here. People have just walked past my house chatting. Their voices sound very loud, as does the occasional car driving through. I can hear the dog in a house across the fields. I have a window cracked open about 1cm. In the winter, if foggy, I can hear ships horns in the estuary, just under 2 miles away across fields, and trains 7 minutes walk away. 2 hours ago I would not have heard the voices, nor the trains, nor the dog due to other indistinguishable background noises.

There is a clay pigeon shoot during the morning at weekends about 1 and half miles away. I can hear the guns from my garden even if neighbours are using their lawn mowers and various other noises.

 

[Bobbie Elliott]

She said this at the trial; I do not believe this was in her written statement. She did not even give her statement until six weeks after the incident and after she had listened to the whole bail hearing.

But remember: OP has said numerous things on the stand that were either absent or different from his versions presented many months ago. OP's incentive/motive for changing his story is much greater than anyone else has.

 

[Harmony 2]

<modsnip>

has the cite been given for these "facts" yet? i don't see it but i did notice a log in earlier today...

something seems "off" about "fact 3"... of all the people i've ever talked to on the phone that i don't know (calling an office, store or a company, telemarketer, gov't agency, restaurant, etc), i don't think i've ever thought someone wasn't the sex they turned out to be having subsequently gotten their name or met them :twocents:

No link was provided or found for the information that you quoted but I was able to find the following about eye and ear witnesses:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/zaid.htm

 

[Harmony 2]

mod note regarding blogs:

Copying/pasting verbatim from a blog is not allowed, paraphrasing is acceptable and a link must be provided...

 

[sleuth-d-]

My recollection is that he did. Reeva had stayed the night before and had been doing the washing that day. She had been out during the afternoon of the 13th. We saw her arriving back before him in the early evening of the 13th. She has to have known the code to let herself in and out. So many lies from OP. He is fairly obviously a compulsive liar.

i thought she left and then returned soon after.
was it speculation [or fact] that she went out to get food? if so, is there evidence of foodshop receipts?

i also thought she had taken a call from oscar outside the estate during this time.

just wondering, did oscar want her to return because she had left the house empty and unalarmed?

 

[Val1]

LOL back at you! You aren't getting off that easy either
If the blood spatter experts say the areas in question were incorrectly described as arterial spurts then so be it but compression/decompression could not imo recreate the pathognomonic undulations characteristic of an arterial spurt. Blood could be ejected but not with that pulsatile pattern. I'll wait for further testimony and so we have more information.

If you could provide the source where Nest changes his mind, that would be great too.

Edit: I do take issue when you use terms like "impossible," because one just doesn't know nor have we heard the experts discuss this at length.

bbm - For a pic of what has been called arterial spurt on OP's walls, check at 1:32-1:35 on this video. http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/05/31/graphic-new-photos-crime-scene-where-pistorius-shot-girlfriend/,

or from http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/17/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-11/

in my untrained intruments(eyes), it does look like it could be cast off, compared to what is used to portray the typical arterial spurt online. I would think that the pulsatile pattern you mention could possibly be caused by OP's gait while descending steps with the unaccustomed dead weight of RS's body.

Cast-off:
http://www.practicalhomicide.com/Research/LOmar2007-2.htm

Arterial Spurt:
http://hemospat.com/bloodstain-pattern-analysis-terminology/?org=IABPA&cat=projected&sub=arterial

http://clarissadraper.blogspot.ca/2010/09/mystery-writers-guide-to-forensic_14.html

 

[sleuth-d-]

No, the jeans inside the house were never proven to be Reeva's. The jeans outside have been ignored so even though they look like women's jeans, we don't know for sure.

I agree with Reeva's mom. Reeva was to slim for the jeans in the bedroom to be hers. As a slim woman myself, I could look at them and tell that there is no way they would fit her without sliding off of her.

MOO

so if they are not hers... they must be his then... surely he is prepared to confirm his own jeans.

 

[sleuth-d-]

OP testified that he turned off the alarm when he opened the front door.

Why?

He had just been calling for help on his balcony moments before.

Was he concerned the alarm would wake his neighbors?

Very thoughtful of him to think of not setting off the alarm while Reeva lay gasping her last breaths in the bathroom upstairs.

fits in the the other factors that point to op not wanting to be disturbed and clearing up, 'post shooting'.

 

[Val1]

i thought she left and then returned soon after.
was it speculation [or fact] that she went out to get food? if so, is there evidence of foodshop receipts?

i also thought she had taken a call from oscar outside the estate during this time.

just wondering, did oscar want her to return because she had left the house empty and unalarmed?

Hmm, I at least assumed she had gone for dinner ingredients because of what OP had said about her cooking dinner ... yea yea, dang rabbit hole may have tripped me up again. :/

 

[sleuth-d-]

I don't think she would wash them with the belt still through the belt loops. Possible I guess but highly unlikely.

MOO

ETA: Now I could see the inside out jeans being a pair that had recently been washed. They are dark colored jeans so washing them inside out would help prevent them from "bleeding" onto other clothes.

maybe having washed her own clothes, this explains why she was wearing his clothes...

 

[kittychi]

I was NOT intending to join in with movie casting, but.....

Vermuelen looks (and behaved) exactly like Ricky Gervais... perhaps not so well known to US audiences, though he has had parts in Hollywood movies. I am thinking of RG in the original UK "The Office" TV series, which was his original concept, he co-wrote and stared in it.

Love RG; brilliant idea

 

[Viper]

bbm - For a pic of what has been called arterial spurt on OP's walls, check at 1:32-1:35 on this video. http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/05/31/graphic-new-photos-crime-scene-where-pistorius-shot-girlfriend/,

or from http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/17/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-11/

in my untrained intruments(eyes), it does look like it could be cast off, compared to what is used to portray the typical arterial spurt online. I would think that the pulsatile pattern you mention could possibly be caused by OP's gait while descending steps with the unaccustomed dead weight of RS's body.

Cast-off:
http://www.practicalhomicide.com/Research/LOmar2007-2.htm

Arterial Spurt:
http://hemospat.com/bloodstain-pattern-analysis-terminology/?org=IABPA&cat=projected&sub=arterial

http://clarissadraper.blogspot.ca/2010/09/mystery-writers-guide-to-forensic_14.html

Wow! Thank you very much Val!

Hey, regarding the BIB, to my eyes that looks like cast off from Reeva's long hair. It had massive amounts of blood in it and contributed to the blood trail leading to the stairs. As OP stepped on to that landing and turned or adjusted his arm under her head and shoulder it is possible that her hair flung blood laterally as well.

TBH I did not see arterial spurt in the images on Lisa's blog either, it is just not there to my eyes. Trying to explain why Nest used that term is a real challenge. Many good people just take it to literally mean that Reeva's heart was beating and that pumped the blood out of her severed arteries in spurts.

But looking at the 9 minutes of time and the lack of spurting all the way up to him carrying her down the stairs, there has got to be another answer. Reeva's head was to the right of the railing and staircase, but the severed artery was deep beneath her brain. Her arm could be dangling downward or it could be close to her body pointing toward the left of the staircase, either way it was not her arm that caused the blood on the right side wall. IMO

Compression and decompression as OP took each step and Reeva's body weight shifted up and down is in my mind responsible for the few blood marks on the wall. That would move blood, whatever small amount, it would move it. It really is, in this case, about moving a very small amount of blood to cause some to shoot out a short distance. It is not the forceful pulsing of an artery that is seen immediately after it is severed. In my opinion after nine minutes her heart could never have pumped any blood, let alone an amount strong enough to shoot out any measurable distance at all.

 

[sleuth-d-]

The jeans have always been a mystery to me as well .
The ones in the bedroom look liked they have been ripped off quickly in my opinion . I think June commented that they looked too big to be Reeva's if they were OP's maybe he took them off at speed so as to put shorts on so create the imagine that he had been to bed .
If they were Reeva's and she was in PJ's when OP arrived why would she have left them like that ? She wouldn't have been in a rush .
Looking at her neatly packed bag and slippers placed by the bed they seem out of place . I think had they been dragged off in the throws of passion OP would have said as much . Reeva could have been trying to leave and he dragged them back off her . Who knows really .
As for the jeans outside I personally think it is likely they were thrown out whilst shouting "get out of my house "
IIRR that is how he behaved in a previous incident where a girl was injured with a panel from his door because he slammed it so hard . That seems to be his modus operandi when arguing.
Nel's closing arguments may incorporate his thoughts on both these things .

i wonder if the jeans were hastily removed as she knew op was due home imminently. maybe she had not admitted to leaving the house on the short trip for food. maybe during the phone call while she was out shopping, she had said she was in her pyjamas at the house.

 

[sleuth-d-]

I think the story about him shooting the dog is consistent with this. It's unfortunate that he hit the dog; this can happen to anyone even if they are driving responsibly . It can be argued that shooting the dog was the kindest thing to do, if it was beyond veterinary help. But the way he seems to have gone about this, then driving off without a word to the owner, no apology or sympathetic words: that all suggests to me that he relished the opportunity to shoot dead a living creature.

or op is displaying a couple of the traits of narcissistic personality disorder... arrogance... lack of empathy...

 

[nastasya]

BBM

What situation, other than in a movie do you hear of this mocking idea? Once you even accept the idea, you've got to think why he would he shout it out so it could be heard on the next estate 177 metres away. Not for me I'm afraid.

My theory is that the only voices she would have heard are those from outside the house, probably from the balcony.

Ref: Gunshots vs Screams.

A gunshot measures approx. 133dB
Loudest scream ever (world record) 128dB

The conditions for the gunshot are also much favoured.

Gunshot - open window
Screaming - enclosed cubicle, wooden door, closed window.

If we even accept that the door was in half, the gun is still nearer to the open window, and the screaming still has a cubicle wall on either side to hinder the sound.

It's looking like a big improbability that the screams could be heard above the gunshots.

Roux asked the state to try the test and guaranteed they would not hear anything from inside a toilet cubicle within a house 177m away. As far as I'm aware no test was performed by the PT. If the above details are correct you can see why.

Link

Excellent observations, thus proving that there is no way the last sounds Burger and Johnson heard were cricket bat hits against the door.

The last sounds they heard had to be gunshots. The sound of that bat hitting the door had to travel around two passages, and out the deck towards Burger's house.

The cricket bat hitting the door would not have had that much acoustic energy. A gunshot has 100x more acoustic energy. This is why Stipp's heard bangs and shots, and Burger and Johnson heard only shots.

 

[TorisMom003]

maybe having washed her own clothes, this explains why she was wearing his clothes...

Reeva's bag was packed with neatly folded clothes. I'm sure she had clean clothes of her own to put on. She had also done her laundry earlier in the day, before she left the estate. Reeva said she had planned on heading home around 3 pm I believe it was or maybe even 6 pm. So that tells me that she expected her laundry to be done before then.

MOO