Trial Discussion Thread #32

[Suthrnqt]

According to OP, he wasn't in bed when he heard the noise!

Well, according to OP, he didn't pull the trigger in Tasha's. To me, if OP's lips are moving, he is lying. MOO

 

[TorisMom003]

But the gun was under the bed so only a tiny adjustment is needed to the analogy - right ?

And Reeva was also awake (in version number three) so why in the world would he not just ask her if she heard the noise as well? Or why did he not wait for a response from Reeva when he yelled/whispered/spoke softly to Reeva to phone police?

Which is another lie since OP never phoned police about anything before because he didn't trust them or think that they could do their job.

MOO

 

[Viper]

My point was, that pool of blood could not have come from just the arm wound. Her hip was shot, was in the spot on the floor where the blood was, so some if not most of that blood on the floor had to have come from her hip. However, the post I responded to made it sound as if only her arm wound caused that pool of blood on the floor. That is why I said that apparently Nest forgot about the hip wound.

Big words and such don't impress me. Like others, I am using my own common sense to come to my conclusions. Sorry if that doesn't impress anyone but that really isn't my goal anyway.

MOO

BIB. I follow you. But Nest dismissed the (obvious) bleeding from Reeva's hip from being the major contributing source of the blood pool that was formed at Reeva's hip in the WC. Again, a severed artery is a very significant thing, and it bleeds profusely. Whereas it seems the potential blood loss from the gunshot wound to the hip paled in comparison to the severed artery. Nest's opinion on this could have only come from information that he gained by attending the autopsy, IMO.

 

[Giles]

But the gun was under the bed so only a tiny adjustment is needed to the analogy - right ?

Definitely! I sometimes think that OP comes across worse when I consider that he might be telling the truth.

 

[TorisMom003]

BIB. I follow you. But Nest dismissed the (obvious) bleeding from Reeva's hip from being the major contributing source of the blood pool that was formed at Reeva's hip in the WC. Again, a severed artery is a very significant thing, and it bleeds profusely. Whereas it seems the potential blood loss from the gunshot wound to the hip paled in comparison to the severed artery. Nest's opinion on this could have only come from information that he gained by attending the autopsy, IMO.

On this we can agree to disagree. I would love to see a photo of the toilet from above. From the photos that I have seen there is blood on the right side of the toilet close to the wall. We know that Reeva's head was on the toilet so perhaps her arm fell onto the toilet also and the blood ran down her arm to drip between the toilet and the wall on the floor.

MOO

ETA: I found one that shows some of the blood drops on the floor beside the toilet on the floor.
link for photo:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/cri...n-bloody-crime-scene-photos-article-1.1721594

 

[Carmelita]

You had a question. I tried in good faith to answer the question for you. And now you want to argue my answer?

Yes the other shooter's gun was available in a semi automatic version. But if you read the court decision the judge writing the opinion excuses the fact that the man fired multiple times because the variant of the gun that he was using was made to fire multiple times with a single pull of the trigger. Further, the judge specifically identified that variant as being "standard" for that gun to fire multiple rounds with a single trigger pull. But it seems that you prefer your prior theory that the shooter had altered his gun to be full automatic; and if you do prefer that then why ask a question on the forum?

I asked you to verify a statement that you made and you verified it by quoting Wiki, I even went so far as to clarify for you why I believe the Wiki answer is not exactly a reliable answer.

By verifying I mean a link to the manufacture or something such as that.


I don’t prefer "my version" I am trying to verify a tangible fact and I haven’t even stated that the modification is not a choice straight from the manufacturer it could very well be.

I do have a question as the human mind does fascinate me. Why would it cross your mind that I would ask a question that I didn’t want the answer to? That is a peculiar thought process.

Thanks for attempting to answer my question, I do appreciate your efforts.

 

[Nausicaa]

Definitely! I sometimes think that OP comes across worse when I consider that he might be telling the truth.

I know what you mean. I think I would rather confess to murder than act as OP has been acting in the dock. His story is like on of those optical illusions of which each individual part is possible when you focus on it alone but which cannot exist as a whole. Coupled with which, I can't rid myself of an old-fashioned stiff-upper-lip masculine ethic. Men just don't cry and vomit when things are tough. And if ever they have to yell they make a conscious effort to aim a couple of octaves lower than is natural to be sure they are not accused of sounding like a woman!

 

[Carmelita]

I have actually been quite open minded so far and not seemed to come to any conclusion however reading another post about not being able to call netcare from reevas phone due to not knowing the password to me was a light bulb moment as anyone with an iphone knows or in fact most phones you can call the emergency number without entering a password??

Thank you. I have a smart phone/iphone and I didn't know that.

 

[jay-jay]

I don't see this as a problem - Oscar never said he heard the ladder being moved I don't think. In fact, I don't know that there was any testimony that Oscar even know exactly where the ladders were; he only knew that some ladders had been left there. Correct me if I'm wrong about that.

Yes, but the point is that it (the ladder) was part of his thinking behind an intruder having gained entry through the bathroom window therefore, if he hadn't heard any actual noise relating to the sound of a ladder being moved or put up against the wall (that would make a noise, too) then he would automatically have known it wasn't possible for the ladder to have been used or for it to have been an intruder coming in through the bathroom window. Even just something like this proves that his whole story is a fabrication.

 

[james83]

But the gun was under the bed so only a tiny adjustment is needed to the analogy - right ?

And also he didn't find it at all strange when she doesn't reply or move when he tell's her to call the police and get down.
You wouldn't leave the room until you were sure your partner had heard and understood what you were saying.
Doesn't ring true at all.

 

[minor4th]

Carmelita,

From the last thread re the gun: Everything I've seen says the gun in this case was a semi-automatic 9mm parabellum. The z88 referenced in the opinion posted also is reported to be a semi-automatic 9 mm. I'm not clear how they are different because of that.

http://www.guntree.co.za/item/351-pistols-semi-automatic-pistols/ZA/0/26736-parabellum-z88

They are the same gun. They're based on the Beretta 92 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Taurus sells it as the P92. Vektor sells it as the Z88 under license from Beretta for use by the SAPS.

The gun used in that other case that was cited was the accused police officer's service weapon (Z88) and it is semi-automatic, and virtually identical to OP's Taurus.

The way the judge described it, I think some have interpreted as "automatic" but he's just quoting what the accused's counsel described as the mechanism for reloading bullets in a semi-automatic with a recoil reloading mechanism.

Bottom line: same gun

 

[Carmelita]

Well technically it is expert opinion that is now evidence. Why do you prefer to believe that the severed artery in Reeva's arm bled in to the toilet? I mean that is what you are saying right? Or are you saying that the one and only true blood pool, the one in the WC, was created by blood loss from the gunshot wound to Reeva's hip? Hmm, please let me know. TIA

So does that mean you will take expert testimony from the defense as fact? I never I said I believe that Reeva’s arm bled into the toilet I asked a question about that being a possibility. I am saying that Reeva’s death scene is open to interpretation. My mind is open to opinions, experts, doctors, medical articles, posters here and so on.


I am not stuck on what the reality of that morning had to be as I don't think there has been evidence or testimony to exactly what happened that morning as of yet. I'd rather conform my opinion to the evidence than visa versa.

 

[minor4th]

The point being that if there really was an intruder coming through the bathroom window, then you would expect Reeva to hear the ladder being moved and placed against the wall. Since he said she was awake.

Yeah, I just don't think that level of executive functioning is expected to take place in one's thought process while in the throes of a panic or terror (according to OP).

In the light of day, and far removed from the situation, it's quite easy to come up with a lot of rational alternatives and hypotheticals, but those really cannot be superimposed in hindsight on Oscar's alleged fearful state of mind at the moment.

 

[steveml]

It appears OP's not the only one who shoots an alleged intruder 4 times...

Link

Not even close to being comparable IMO. The wife asked for him to identify himself, he didn't. He also was using a freaking blowtorch to open the gate instead of knocking on the door or phoning his wife. The wife was home alone when he came to the house.

OP was in the bed, next to Reeva (according to him), did not ask that she identify herself, heard nothing other than a "window being opened" and a toilet door being "slammed shut".

OP also fired a "kill shot" to Reeva's head, the wife fired into the stomach and chest.

MOO

BBM

You've answered something totally different, where have I said the two crimes are comparable?

The point made is that it's not implausible that someone would fire 4 shots at an alleged intruder.

Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[minor4th]

What about refuting Pistorius's claim that their product is only intended to use hollow-nosed ammunition?

Parabellums are designed only to handle hollow point ammunition

 

[steveml]

They are the same gun. They're based on the Beretta 92 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Taurus sells it as the P92. Vektor sells it as the Z88 under license from Beretta for use by the SAPS.

The gun used in that other case that was cited was the accused police officer's service weapon (Z88) and it is semi-automatic, and virtually identical to OP's Taurus.

The way the judge described it, I think some have interpreted as "automatic" but he's just quoting what the accused's counsel described as the mechanism for reloading bullets in a semi-automatic with a recoil reloading mechanism.

Bottom line: same gun

Yep, they're the same - semi-automatics. Taurus bought the Beretta factory in Brazil and maintained production.

 

[Cherwell]

Yeah, I just don't think that level of executive functioning is expected to take place in one's thought process while in the throes of a panic or terror (according to OP).

In the light of day, and far removed from the situation, it's quite easy to come up with a lot of rational alternatives and hypotheticals, but those really cannot be superimposed in hindsight on Oscar's alleged fearful state of mind at the moment.

But OP himself, in his bail affidavit, mentioned the ladders as being part of his thought process.

"I heard a noise in the bathroom and realised that someone was in the bathroom. I felt a sense of terror rushing over me. There are no burglar bars across the bathroom window and I knew that contractors who worked at my house had left the ladders outside."

 

[jay-jay]

Thank you. I have a smart phone/iphone and I didn't know that.

I don't think it matters whether someone knows or doesn't know about being able to call an emergency number on a smartphone without knowing the phone passcode .. because the main problem with OP and those phones was that he claims he was going to call the emergency services with Reeva's phone but then couldn't because he didn't know her passcode .. but then what does he do when he grabs his own phone? Does he phone the emergency services like he said he was going to do with Reeva's phone? Nope, he doesn't .. he calls Stander. So that was clearly a big fat lie about wanting to call the emergency services straight away anyway.

 

[BritsKate]

No one is certain about where the pool of blood was from other than one of Reevas wounds.

LOL! I remember differently. Read more at the link:

Quote:
"He said she most likely sustained the head wound somewhere in front of the lid.

The heavy flow of blood on the floor came from the continual bleeding from her arm."

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/analyst-explains-reeva-s-blood-trail-1.1663753#.U1lZ2L-9LTo


Thank you for challenging me though! :smile:

That is the State witness's opinion. That doesn't make it a fact. It is speculation.

Respectfully, please realise that I'm not trying to tell anyone how or what to post - with big cases like these though, people drop in and out, and very often expect WS to be accurate for at least what's been presented at trial. So it becomes very confusing to say something never happened in court rather than 'X said so and so but I disagree with it' or 'in my opinion nothing relevant was testified to by X', kwim?

It allows other people to at least seek out other sources, ask for further clarification if needed, and form their own opinions. Not to mention saving others from having to dig for links.

MOO

 

[minor4th]

I asked you to verify a statement that you made and you verified it by quoting Wiki, I even went so far as to clarify for you why I believe the Wiki answer is not exactly a reliable answer.

By verifying I mean a link to the manufacture or something such as that.


I don’t prefer "my version" I am trying to verify a tangible fact and I haven’t even stated that the modification is not a choice straight from the manufacturer it could very well be.

I do have a question as the human mind does fascinate me. Why would it cross your mind that I would ask a question that I didn’t want the answer to? That is a peculiar thought process.

Thanks for attempting to answer my question, I do appreciate your efforts.

Here's some more info on the Z88 used by the SAPS: Link