Trial Discussion Thread #32

[steveml]

Absolutely, if you can concede OP shot at a door not an intruder.:loveyou:

I'm not ready to reach a plea-bargain just yet. I'll let you know after I've seen a few more defense witnesses.

:smile:

 

[Carmelita]

Once the trigger is pressed,
the pistol will fire after which the recoil operation automatically extracts, ejects
and reloads the chamber until all rounds are fired.
1
Thus the appellant could
not have paused in between the shots to deliberately and intentionally shoot
the deceased.


Hmm see this to me indicates an automatic weapon as the appellant could not have paused between shots, if the bullets were just rapidly chambered he could have stopped.

It was enough for a judge to overturn a ruling I can't imagine that a rapidly clambering gun would be enough to overrule a judgement.

I'm not sure who brought the case here but they will know more than me.

 

[lithgow1]

Why is this relevant to the OP case?

OP denies intentionally firing shots at an intruder.

Yes, and most people who shoot at an intruder probably actually SEE someone, or at least something more threatening than a closed door before they start blazing away.

 

[steveml]

Yes, and most people who shoot at an intruder probably actually SEE someone, or at least something more threatening than a closed door before they start blazing away.

I agree.

 

[BritsKate]

Yes, and most people who shoot at an intruder probably actually SEE someone, or at least something more threatening than a closed door before they start blazing away.

For that very reason, I find it very difficult to compare this case to any other one.

 

[Carmelita]

BIB. Oh yes, please do! All of a sudden I am really interested in that other case and learning that the gun that was used is something other than a variant that is capable of firing 3 bullets in a single trigger pull. I am very interested, so thanks for researching that for all of us!

I'll do my best but I thought you said that you researched it and you were the one that brought up the 3 shot variant, I was simply under the impression that the gun was fully automatic.

 

[minor4th]

Once the trigger is pressed,
the pistol will fire after which the recoil operation automatically extracts, ejects
and reloads the chamber until all rounds are fired.
1
Thus the appellant could
not have paused in between the shots to deliberately and intentionally shoot
the deceased.


Hmm see this to me indicates an automatic weapon as the appellant could not have paused between shots, if the bullets were just rapidly chambered he could have stopped.

It was enough for a judge to overturn a ruling I can't imagine that a rapidly clambering gun would be enough to overrule a judgement.

I'm not sure who brought the case here but they will know more than me.

It's not describing an automatic weapon - it's describing how the chamber reloads after each shot without having to do a hard trigger pull or the hammer or manipulate the slide.

That was not why the case was overturned - or changed from murder to culpable homicide. It was reduced because there was evidence that the accused really believed he was under attack (even though the deceased wasnt armed). He was still found guilty of culpable homicide though because the accused should have known that firing 3 shots instead of 1 would have been excessive even if it was an actual self defense situation.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Yes, and most people who shoot at an intruder probably actually SEE someone, or at least something more threatening than a closed door before they start blazing away.

Yes I agree and believe SA gun law is pretty clear on this .
It would set a terribly precedent if he were to be acquitted of all possible murder charges .

 

[minor4th]

Does anyone know exactly where the bathroom tile starts? I have always been under the impression that it was carpet in the hallways, right up to the point where the actual bathroom starts. I have found pictures that the longer hallway when you enter from OP's bedroom is carpeted but can't find any pictures of that other little hallway right before you enter the bathroom proper.

 

[Val1]

BIB. Oh yes, please do! All of a sudden I am really interested in that other case and learning that the gun that was used is something other than a variant that is capable of firing 3 bullets in a single trigger pull. I am very interested, so thanks for researching that for all of us!

bbm - The quote that was used to supposedly conclude that it wasn't capable of firing 3 shots per trigger action says it all imo...
http://www.justice.gov.za/sca/judgments/sca_2014/sca2014-052.pdf

According to Steyl, a Z88 9mm Parabellum expels bullets in rapid
succession. Once the trigger is pressed, the pistol will fire after which the recoil operation automatically extracts, ejects and reloads the chamber until all rounds are fired. Thus the appellant could not have paused in between the shots to deliberately and intentionally shoot the deceased.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Does anyone know exactly where the bathroom tile starts? I have always been under the impression that it was carpet in the hallways, right up to the point where the actual bathroom starts. I have found pictures that the longer hallway when you enter from OP's bedroom is carpeted but can't find any pictures of that other little hallway right before you enter the bathroom proper.

I could be wrong but I think the dressing room is carpeted and the tiling starts at the short corridor that leads to the bathroom .
ETA
Have just checked. There is a photo on Lisa's blog Van Rensburg evidence that shows the tiling as I described above.
A casing was found in this area.

 

[BritsKate]

It's not describing an automatic weapon - it's describing how the chamber reloads after each shot without having to do a hard trigger pull or the hammer or manipulate the slide.

That was not why the case was overturned - or changed from murder to culpable homicide. It was reduced because there was evidence that the accused really believed he was under attack (even though the deceased wasnt armed). He was still found guilty of culpable homicide though because the accused should have known that firing 3 shots instead of 1 would have been excessive even if it was an actual self defense situation.

RBBM

There was an appeal case somewhat similar I read weeks back. I've tried to find it again but haven't been able to so this will have to be jmo. SA case : Two men had an altercation following a minor traffic accident. The defendant shot the victim in the head once. The victim's arm flinched after the first shot, so the defendant fired again - also in the head. He too claimed putative self-defence, stating the victim's arm flinching made him believe the victim was reaching for a weapon. He was found guilty of murder and the conviction upheld. In part, according to the ruling, because he did fire twice.

Not comparing it to Oscar's case. Just a case to share I found interesting.

 

[Lochlynsmom]

I'm not ready to reach a plea-bargain just yet. I'll let you know after I've seen a few more defense witnesses.

:smile:

Fair enough! How about this you acknowledge the difference between seeing the threat, asking them to identify themselves and shooting vs hearing a noise, screaming get out of my house and shooting at a door.
:toast: for you for making me rethink my opinions

 

[Carmelita]

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I read that case yesterday and the judge's notations about the gun did peak my interest. Lets start by saying that gun was very different from OPs 9mm; OPs gun can only fire one bullet with each pull of the trigger, just one bullet each time.

The judge noted that the entry wounds to the one man nearest the shooter were spread out quite a bit because the gun was set on fully automatic and the recoil caused the man to fire wildly. Those guns are illegal in most every country that I am aware of; they are police and military issue in some countries though. Note: it is possible to modify a semi automatic handgun to be fully automatic, but OPs gun was not modified to be that way.

Anyway I had first imagined a fully automatic 9mm compact sub machine gun, like the first Uzi models from the '80s drug shoot outs. But a quick research showed that the gun the man used was a 9mm pistol with the capability of firing a single shot with each trigger pull (semi automatic) or a burst of three bullets with a single trigger pull or an option to be fully automatic and fire all of its bullets with a single pull if the trigger, only stopping if the trigger is released. See below:

Quote:
93R: Chambered for the 9×19mm Parabellum as above, but capable of semi-auto, full auto, or three round burst. Weapon was originally equipped with a 13 round magazine and a 20 round magazine, as well as detachable butt stock. The "R" stands for "Raffica", which is Italian for "burst".

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_92

*snipped by me for clarity* Original post #873 04-21-2014, 01:04 PM


My apologies this is where I got my errant information. I should have done my research. And my apologies for the copy and paste I don't know how to quote a post from another thread into this thread.

 

[DebinGA]

What about refuting Pistorius's claim that their product is only intended to use hollow-nosed ammunition?

Asked why he used black talons, OP testified that it "was the type of ammunition used for my firearm." I bet he'd practiced that answer a thousand time or two. It's not a lie, as he obviously "used" it, but it's definitely misleading.

 

[minor4th]

Asked why he used black talons, OP testified that it "was the type of ammunition used for my firearm." I bet he'd practiced that answer a thousand time or two. It's not a lie, as he obviously "used" it, but it's definitely misleading.

How is that misleading? Nel dropped it after this and didn't inquire further - probably because Nel didn't want to have Oscar say on the record that his parabellum uses only hollow point bullets.

 

[Lochlynsmom]

Asked why he used black talons, OP testified that it "was the type of ammunition used for my firearm." I bet he'd practiced that answer a thousand time or two. It's not a lie, as he obviously "used" it, but it's definitely misleading.

Hmmm but interesting it was difficult for the defense "expert" to find said ammo.

 

[whiterum]

According to OP, he wasn't in bed when he heard the noise!

He went to fetch his gun from under the bed all he had to do was take a few seconds by words feel or touch to check if RS was still in the bed.

 

[minor4th]

Hmmm but interesting it was difficult for the defense "expert" to find said ammo.

It wasn't difficult for him to find hollow point ammunition that essentially the same as black talon. He just couldnt find that exact brand because it's not made any more.

 

[Viper]

I'll do my best but I thought you said that you researched it and you were the one that brought up the 3 shot variant, I was simply under the impression that the gun was fully automatic.

Here is video of a modified Glock, full automatic. Hopefully you will see that a full automatic handgun is just a bad idea and no manufacturer would make one, IMO. A three round burst would be suitable to some military and special police units though, and it is documented in the Wikipedia link that I so kindly provided to you.

I just love this video! It looks like so much fun! Skip to :33

http://youtu.be/FbsgHbXubGU