Trial Discussion Thread #34 - 14.05.06 Day 27

[james83]

Question for anyone who remembers: Did Oscar say he screamed help, help, help from the sliding door/balcony or did he yell that from the open bathroom window?

Opened the curtains, opened the doors with cocked gun in one hand, and shouted from the balcony for help.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I think Mrs. Stipp was awake because she wasn't feeling well. Otherwise I agree!

Yes Mrs Stipp was awake sometime just before 3.00am but I think IIRR Mrs Merwe heard the argument an hour or so earlier. That argument could have taken place anywhere in the house and that is when Mrs stipp's could have still been asleep

 

[katydid23]

Quoting myself and continuing with the same thought.

OP calls Stander...

Stander answers the call from bed. Stander agrees to immediately drive to OP's house.
Standers daughter "Carice" is awake because she heard screams. Stander takes his daughter with him to OP's house. OP knows Stander lives 3 minutes away. OP's next call is to netcare. But he oddly doesn't remember what he said all he remembers is that netcare said to bring Reeva to the hospital. I believe that call was 66 seconds. I don't think he ever spoke to anyone at netcare. I think he was waiting to be connected and he hung up because he could see the Silver Woods Country Estate security car start driving away from Dr Stipps house and driving to OP's house. Who does OP call next? Security. OP doesn't remember why but it must have been because he needed help lifting Reeva. You know because netcare allegedly told OP to take Reeva to the hospital.
I think OP called security because they were driving toward his house and Stander wasn't there yet to stop them.

OP doesn't say anything to security and the call ends.

Next is an incoming call from security. OP answers and tells security that everything is fine.

Then, his live in gardener "Frank" magically appears outside and is in the street with security when Stander and Carice arrive.

OP is suddenly able pick Reeva up and carry her downstairs.


(Carice Stander recently got married and is now Carice Viljoen)

Roux: Okay, you say you arrived and saw Frank the gardener and a person there.
by Sky News court reporter 2:41 AM yesterday

Viljoen: Yes.by Sky News court reporter 2:41 AM yesterday

Roux: What car did you drive?
by Sky News court reporter 2:41 AM yesterday

Viljoen: A mini, a silver mini.
by Sky News court reporter 2:41 AM yesterday


Viljoen: We asked what is going on, they said they don't know. I remember as we approached the house the door was slightly open. I remember I just touched the door and it opened.
by Sky News court reporter 2:42 AM yesterday

Viljoen: I remember the first thing I saw was Oscar carrying Reeva. I came into the door and he was there on the landing coming down.
by Sky News court reporter 2:42 AM yesterday

Viljoen: I proceeded to enter the house and he came down. You could see he was walking very fast. He just wanted to get her to the hospital.
by Sky News court reporter 2:43 AM yesterday

Transcript on page 8
http://news.sky.com/story/1255199/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-26-court-transcript



JMO

:goodpost: :goodpost: :goodpost:

 

[wb180]

If the current evidence from the both the PT and DT expert witnesses correct then with the above scenario I'm left holding a mental picture that I find so very hard to believe. Much harder than believing OP screamed like a woman.

I have to imagine that OP was arguing with Reeva whilst on his stumps - that's a whole 4ft tall, for a guy that supposedly likes to be in control and domineering. Rather than steadily moving down the corridor to maintain his balance as he would be in an intruder situation, he's running after Reeva in a waddling fashion through the bedroom, along the corridor and into the bathroom, whilst trying to remain upright. Whilst doing this he has to hope that neither Reeva stops running or he stops waddling, as if he has to stop without anything for balance he simply falls over. He also has to make sure that he doesn't come into contact with Reeva as again, he'll lose balance and his best laid plan will be scuppered as he lies on the floor.

He can't push or move Reeva anywhere, as guess what...he'd fall over. Once he stops moving he has to lean on something, that is a simple fact. It then would become necessary for him to request that Reeva take herself into the toilet, or wait while he uses her for balance, and then follow her into the toilet. At any time from wherever the argument started, Reeva, who is quite an athletic girl herself, could move her hip to the side and send OP tumbling. A simple push with one hand would do it

Now, it may be difficult to imagine OP screaming in a high octave, but if I'm thinking in terms of probability, the threatening but waddling OP is gonna come second every single time.

The waddling explanation isn't meant to be funny - it's realism.

Once you get over this it helps to understand how ridiculous this scenario appears.

Well he was "waddling" towards a potentially armed intruder so he must feel pretty big, strong and threatening to go into that corridor pitch black haha.

 

[Trooper]

On that note, what are the prisons like in SA ? Unfortunately I do not have a legal brain in my body.…..35 years of aviation consequently anything I would have to add would be pure dribble.

I am in awe of the websleuthers knowledge and contributions.

oh , Oscar will be ok, Em.. one old murderer has lasted 30 years in solitary in a prison just down the road from Oscar... he gets a bit biffed about by the other prisoners, that's true, but he is still hanging in there.. Oscar will be fine.. no worries..

 

[ColonelMustard]

Careful, approach with caution. Highly addictive, wives getting annoyed, children starving and not getting dinner all around the world. Personally, I've gained 4 lbs...much more fun than the gymn

Brilliant!!

 

[wb180]

This Frank guy is really interesting.

Coz I NEVER knew there was another person living on the premises until now.

 

[crasshopper]

Yes Mrs Stipp was awake sometime just before 3.00am but I think IIRR Mrs Merwe heard the argument an hour or so earlier. That argument could have taken place anywhere in the house and that is when Mrs stipp's could have still been asleep

True, true. Thank you!

 

[Cymbaline]

This Frank guy is really interesting.

Coz I NEVER knew there was another person living on the premises until now.

I know!! OP never said a word about the guy while he was testifying.

 

[jay-jay]

Big difference between girlfriend and fiance...most people do not use the two interchangeably. I find it interesting and so did the neighbor as evidenced by their later conversation which he said "so this is the one?" I personally think he made it up and I think anyone wanting to bolster OP's case may do the same...want to show how much OP loved her and planned a future with her and so of course could have never killed her on purpose.
"

Totally agree with you .. it just doesn't fit with Reeva only just plucking up the courage to say "I love you" in her Valentines Card. I very much doubt they were engaged, and the story sounds like yet another fabrication to me in order to bolster up this picture of them being a couple happily in love and that he couldn't possibly have killed her in a fit of pique. :facepalm:

 

[Ncl1968]

I know!! OP never said a word about the guy while he was testifying.

His silence will not be lost on the judge....

 

[ColonelMustard]

I really think the question (2 of them now) is irrelevant for the following:

I believe that Reeva did not think in a million years that Oscar was going to get his gun and kill her. Imo, she ran into the cubicle to put a barrier between her and Oscar. Yes, she was no doubt scared - she even said in one of her texts that he scares hers sometimes. I've maintained from the beginning, if she was scared for her life, she would have run down the stairs and out the door cornered herself in a cubicle.

Said this before but want to say it again. OP said that the bedroom door was locked and he felt "trapped." I think it was really Reeva who felt (was) trapped because he had locked and barricaded the bedroom door (with the cricket bat).

 

[ColonelMustard]

BBM

Unless she couldn't because OP was blocking her way. I tend to agree with Val that this argument started downstairs. I think that Reeva ran upstairs for two reasons....1 to get away from OP and 2 to get her things so she could leave. I think that is why the bedroom door is as damaged as it is. Reeva locked OP out of the bedroom and he broke through the door.

MOO

Interesting.

 

[steveml]

As far as I can tell, the only reason the bullets are said to come before the bat hits is because of the crack that deviates through one of the bullet holes. For me, the other possibility is that the crack was caused when the panel was prised out making it possible that the bat hits may have been before the bullets. I have difficulty believing Reeva could have lived as long as she must have, if the bullets were at around 3am.

Would the suggestion of bat hits before gunshots be alluding to the idea that only a noise was made against the door?

i.e. OP didn't actually break the door, he just hit it hard with the cricket bat?

 

[Nausicaa]

Mr Fossil, I think you're under an illusion about how long Reeva survived. I have bolded the relevant part in two of your recent posts:

As far as I can tell, the only reason the bullets are said to come before the bat hits is because of the crack that deviates through one of the bullet holes. For me, the other possibility is that the crack was caused when the panel was prised out making it possible that the bat hits may have been before the bullets. I have difficulty believing Reeva could have lived as long as she must have, if the bullets were at around 3am.

This is certainly what Johnson testified but his call time was his recollection of his own call billing record. He's very specific about the 58 second duration but do we really know that the call was at exactly 3:16? I don't think his actual phone records were provided but I'd be surprised if the prosecution hadn't checked them out before he gave his evidence. On the other hand, if he's not with Vodacom how do we know that his provider's clock is in sync with the other call times provided from Vodacom call records?

What bothers me more is that if we accept Annette Stipp's and Estelle van der Merwe's evidence that the first shots were at about 3am, there's about 15 minutes before OP breaks down the toilet door and a further few minutes before he moves Reeva, during which time she has to still be alive according to his story and for the arterial spurts to have occurred. This time period for her to live after the last gun shot (if this is what the first bangs were) and him moving her seems unlikely according to the pathologist's evidence.

I know the forensics man referred to arterial spurts, but the word "spurt" was a clear mistake for "spatter". We have now had pretty good pics of the blood marks in question and none of them shows spurting arterial blood pattern. We also have pathologist Saayman's statement that vital functions would have ceased almost immediately upon the masssive brain injury and Dr Stipp's evidence that Reeva's eyes were already veiled when he examined her. There was a long and sometimes lively dispute about this between Viper and the other medics but Viper's view cannot seriously be challenged now that we can examine the pics ourselves and we have had Stipp's evidence.

One consoling result of this is that Reeva was spared the ultimate indignity of dying in her killer's arms. She was dead before he reached her.

The only evidence we now have for postulating Reeva's survival for several minutes is from OP himself - draw your own conclusions.

BTW this may show why no one was especially interested in taking Reeva urgently to hospital. It was obvious she was dead.

 

[katydid23]

This Frank guy is really interesting.

Coz I NEVER knew there was another person living on the premises until now.

Here we have OP saying he was a vulnerable, disabled guy, trapped in his bedroom. But there was actually a male employee right downstairs. Surprises the heck out of me that he didn't call Frank's cell and warn him about the intruders, and ask for some back up.

And why would OP call an old man who lived blocks away, for help lifting Reeva? He had Frank, his man servant, already on the premises. That blows my mind that Nel hasn't questioned the DT about that.

It really is odd and there is more to it than we have heard yet. imo

Wouldn't Frank be the perfect witness for Roux to dispel the rumors that OP and RS were arguing loudly that night? Why wasn't he put up there to debunk that?

 

[james83]

Here we have OP saying he was a vulnerable, disabled guy, trapped in his bedroom. But there was actually a male employee right downstairs. Surprises the heck out of me that he didn't call Frank's cell and warn him about the intruders, and ask for some back up.

And why would OP call an old man who lived blocks away, for help lifting Reeva? He had Frank, his man servant, already on the premises. That blows my mind that Nel hasn't questioned the DT about that.

It really is odd and there is more to it than we have heard yet. imo

Wouldn't Frank be the perfect witness for Roux to dispel the rumors that OP and RS were arguing loudly that night? Why wasn't he put up there to debunk that?

Agree totally.
The fact of the matter is he was standing outside when the Stander's arrived which makes him a vital witness, the fact that he was standing there means something or someone woke him up.
It Lead's me to come to the conclusion that Frank is not prepared to get involved because he is not willing to lie on the stand about what he heard.
It's obvious that if Oscar was telling the truth this man would have felt it his duty to testify, can anyone dispute that?.

 

[Cymbaline]

What about Frank? Maybe Frank is like The Wolf in Pulp Fiction.



Nel: Thank-you my lady. There is still 2 issues that I have to deal with.
by Sky News court reporter May 5 at 1:53 AM

Nel: Do you know if the accused house is fitted with an alarm?
by Sky News court reporter May 5 at 1:53 AM

Stander: Yes, twice. When he would ask me to look after the house, he would give me the remote to activate and deactivate.
by Sky News court reporter May 5 at 1:54 AM

Nel: You said that the deceased stayed at his house for a period of time?
by Sky News court reporter May 5 at 1:54 AM

Stander: That is correct.
by Sky News court reporter May 5 at 1:54 AM

Nel: December 2012.
by Sky News court reporter May 5 at 1:54 AM

Nel: And that was also, you also met the deceased in December 2012 and she stayed alone at the house for what period?
by Sky News court reporter May 5 at 1:55 AM

Stander: I don't know the exact period, could have been a week. I think.
by Sky News court reporter May 5 at 1:55 AM

 

[Ncl1968]

Unexplained holes in bedroom door... Unexplained holes in reevas back unexplained housekeepers silence
Hmmm explain yourself Oscar....

 

[Lyra500]

Can you get bail after a murder conviction?

I have read a couple of posts from another FM suggesting that in SA you can. Seems utterly outrageous to me. I think it was Interested Bystander but I cannot say where the original information came from. (IB please forgive me if I have this wrong).