Trial Discussion Thread #34 - 14.05.06 Day 27

[Bazinga]

Frank, as we all likely suspect, would know a lot! I'm loathe to criticise him too much though for not testifying/making a statement without "walking a mile in his shoes". I'd speculate that there was a huge power imbalance in the relationship he had with OP - who was not only a national hero but from an old and wealthy family. Is it unlikely/impossible that he felt intimidated? I'd say no.

I hate to say it but after following this case and especially hearing how people spoke of Mrs Stipp I would avoid testifying at a televised murder trial if there was any option to do so. I love my privacy. No bookface for me.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Not very important, but there seems to be a general assumption that Reeva had not said ILY before the Valentine card. There is no way at all that we can know this. I don't infer it from the wording of the card. Valentines Day is a good day to say ILY - whether it's been said before or not.

We know this from her call to OP, that RS had planned to say ILY for the first time, but then had an argument. Am I wrong?

 

[Cherwell]

But it confuses me. Because why would she live there for a week to watch the dogs, if Frank was always there? Why didn't he watch the dogs?

Don't know. Maybe he isn't good with dogs.

 

[Cherwell]

We know this from her call to OP, that RS had planned to say ILY for the first time, but then had an argument. Am I wrong?

Without being privy to every word and conversation between the two of them, we cannot know. But as I said, it's not important.

 

[jay-jay]

I don't know how things work in SA but in the US, in principle at least, people are innocent until proved guilty. He hasn't been convicted, yet.

I did say an 'accused murderer' .. which is actually the case, and that is why he is on trial. I'm not aware that in the UK, someone like (for instance) Mark Bridger, would've just been allowed to walk out of the door with the rest of everyone in court .. I believe that 'the accused' is led away separately, by police, in this country. They are also kept in prison until their trial.

 

[UndiscoveredTruth]

When my son still lived at home, he would often go to sleep with his iPod plugged into his ears. So he would hear NOTHING. You could pound and pound on his door,which he locked, as a once obnoxious teen. LOL

Maybe Frank had headphones and played video games or listened to music as he went to sleep?

BBM: That's a good one, katydid23! Another possibility is, maybe Frank has a severe hearing loss and has hearing aids that he takes out when he goes to bed. Who knows!

 

[Viper]

Didn't Dr. Stipp say her eye was cloudy also?
I'm not even remotely sure of what that means in medical terms but I do remember him saying it.

The appearance of the eyes is often the first visual sign that a person has died. The eyes (corneas) are supplied with blood, so that they can live, by tiny blood vessels called capillaries and these capillaries are far removed from the arteries that supply them with blood. Once the blood is no longer being moved through the body the eyes start to dry and present a milky appearance within minutes after the heart stops beating.

 

[crasshopper]

Estelle....I too am very sorry for your loss.....I lost my Dad in March who lived next door to me.

I have found the Trial and the wonderful Websleuthers here to be a great distraction. Chin up.

Condolences to you too Really. I lost my father years ago and some days it still feels fresh. Gardening was my therapy...but I can see now WS would have been great

 

[sleuth-d-]

Then why didn't Mr. N do it when he testified?

that is a v v good question. imo

 

[crasshopper]

The appearance of the eyes is often the first visual sign that a person has died. The eyes (corneas) are supplied with blood, so that they can live, by tiny blood vessels called capillaries and these capillaries are far removed from the arteries that supply them with blood. Once the blood is no longer being moved through the body the eyes start to dry and present a milky appearance within minutes after the heart stops beating.

Actually, and I hate to point this out, but corneas are AVASCULAR and devoid of capillaries. Yes, they can become cloudy within minutes of death but the time of onset of corneal clouding is highly variable.

It is usually used working backwards. For instance if the corneas on a corpse are clear you can reliably say the death occured within the past 36 hrs.

 

[Estelle]

But it confuses me. Because why would she live there for a week to watch the dogs, if Frank was always there? Why didn't he watch the dogs?

I seem to remember that Reeva's mother was disappointed she didn't see Reeva at Christmas and later Reeva joined OP in Cape Town. Does anyone have any links to this? It sounds to me that Reeva was more besotted with OP than he was with her at this stage. So if they were both there together, surely Frank would have looked after the dogs. Also, why did Stander have to do it while OP was away?

 

[Cymbaline]

BBM

Roux: OP yesterday we finished were you had entered the toilet, please can you carry on.
by Sky News court reporter 8:44 AM

OP: I knelt down next to Reeva, her weight was on the toilet bowl.
by Sky News court reporter 8:44 AM

OP: I sat there, I don't know for how long and cried.
by Sky News court reporter 8:44 AM

OP: I heard her breathing and then put her weight against me so that I could try and pick her up.
by Sky News court reporter 8:45 AM

OP: I swivelled my body to try and lean up against the door to try and pick her up.
by Sky News court reporter 8:45 AM

OP: I tried to carry her out of the bathroom..
by Sky News court reporter 8:46 AM

OP: I noticed her cellphone had fallen into the toilet. I could see her arm was hanging and broken.
by Sky News court reporter 8:46 AM

OP: I pulled her phone out of the toilet but I couldn't unlock it as it had a password on. I ran to the bedroom to get my cellphone and phoned Mr. Stander.
by Sky News court reporter 8:47 AM

OP: He lives in the estate.
by Sky News court reporter 8:47 AM

OP: I then phoned 911, they told me I need to get her to a hospital. I went back to Reeva and tried to carry her down stairs but her weight was to much for me.
by Sky News court reporter 8:48 AM

OP: I ran downstairs to open the front door, because I knew I wouldn't be able to open the door while carry Reeva.
by Sky News court reporter 8:48 AM

OP: I went back upstairs to fetch Reeva and took her downstairs.
by Sky News court reporter 8:48 AM

OP: Mr. Stander and Miss. Stander arrived and he told me to put Reeva down on the floor.
by Sky News court reporter 8:49 AM

OP: I was trying to help Reeva, I was crying. I knelt down beside Reeva, with my finger in her mouth to try help her airways.
by Sky News court reporter 8:49 AM

OP: The paramedics arrived.
by Sky News court reporter 8:49 AM

OP: We tried to help her, when they arrived they asked for some space to work, so I stood up.
by Sky News court reporter 8:50 AM

 

[Interested Bystander]

But suppose he is found guilty on the firearms charges and given a custodial sentence for those? What are the chances of his appealing those? I can't see that being allowed.

I would only be guessing as I have no legal knowledge. I can only refer to what I have read. MOO is that he would still get bail but he will never be allowed to own or use a gun in future. I don't know how far that would go, ie would he be allowed to belong to a gun club as long as he didn't own a gun. However, it is also my belief that if this happens OP will obtain/borrow a firearm at some stage and possibly shoot on safe territory, ie friend's property, and given the type of personality he is, he may even secrete one of his own somewhere he considers safe. Sorry I cannot offer any more. We do have legal eagles on here who may be of more help.

 

[crasshopper]

I did say an 'accused murderer' .. which is actually the case, and that is why he is on trial. I'm not aware that in the UK, someone like (for instance) Mark Bridger, would've just been allowed to walk out of the door with the rest of everyone in court .. I believe that 'the accused' is led away separately, by police, in this country. They are also kept in prison until their trial.

I wanted to comment on this too! I find it shocking that the defendant is not kept more separated from the 'audience' for want of a better term.

They quasi-quarantine them in the US for a myriad of reasons including
safety issues, potential intimidation and decorum. Of course, I'm not advocating having them appear in a box or barred cell as some countries do, but still...just shocking.

 

[Murphys_Law]

I may be misunderstanding this. You're suggesting that OP was telling her to go out the toilet window? If so, that would make no sense. The "Intruder" or fellow burglars may have been on the ladder and there was no ladder at the toilet window, I don't think.

The alleged "Get down" (in place) would show he was concerned about her.

NO...not at all.
I was suggesting that she may have opened the toilette window (or it was open already) and climbed onto the toilette as this window was her only escape route from the bat wielding wacko on the other side of the door, smashing away on the wall tiles and toilette door ...trying to flush her out into his line of sight.

Don't forget that a pair of jeans lies on the ground directly beneath the toilette window so it is conceivable that the window was open at some point during the early morning. Also, recall OP's alleged motivation for pulling the trigger was the sound of "wood moving" in the toilette.

All speculation, but I can imagine a scenario in which she was trying to get out the window, OP hears and sees her, yells "GET DOWN!" and then
fires a warning shot (B) to re-enforce his command. She retreats in fear from the window and is now facing the door - bang bang bang.

While this scenario delivers a shot-pause-shot-shot-shot sequence, I have some reservations about whether the rapidity of the last 3 shots would fit the PT version.

 

[sleuth-d-]

You are correct. The only neighbours with a clear, unobstructed vista to OP's bedroom balcony and bathroom are the Stipps. Every other witness has several elements in between, both structural walls and interior partition walls.

i think it is fair to say the stipps view was partially obstructed by trees. dr stipp described how the trees covered part of the bathroom window.

looking at the two attachments, i doubt they could see the bedroom balcony [because of the trees].

interesting how directly adversarial the two properties are... op and stipp.

 

[Fuskier]

I can't help but think that Frank was potentially the smoking gun :banghead::banghead::banghead:

Frank Chiziweni
http://abcnews.go.com/International/...ry?id=23602899

In this video clip it is stated "the Pistorious family continue to employ him".

 

[Budgie]

I did say an 'accused murderer' .. which is actually the case, and that is why he is on trial. I'm not aware that in the UK, someone like (for instance) Mark Bridger, would've just been allowed to walk out of the door with the rest of everyone in court .. I believe that 'the accused' is led away separately, by police, in this country. They are also kept in prison until their trial.

Same as here Jay. I can't understand how he got bail when charged with murder and brought before a court on that charge, let alone all of his other pending fire arm charges.
Clearly someone has paid a hefty price to have him out on bail on a murder wrap. Goodness knows who and why.
I'm guessing that pastel pop-up he lived in didn't fetch a good sized penny considering what happened there and who the immediate neighbours are.

So not only as the accused murderer of Miss Steenkamp....with other charges pending court dates....He's draining or has drained his own bank account and now draining someone else's to keep himself out of prison to pay for the whooping daily legal team in court.

I smell failure.

 

[james83]

Frank Chiziweni
http://abcnews.go.com/International/...ry?id=23602899

In this video clip it is stated "the Pistorious family continue to employ him".

HMMMM I'm thinking Frank has a job for life and has enjoyed a considerable pay rise since Feb 14th 2013.

 

[Cherwell]

I did say an 'accused murderer' .. which is actually the case, and that is why he is on trial. I'm not aware that in the UK, someone like (for instance) Mark Bridger, would've just been allowed to walk out of the door with the rest of everyone in court .. I believe that 'the accused' is led away separately, by police, in this country. They are also kept in prison until their trial.

Not to mention that Pistorius is an admitted killer.