Trial Discussion Thread #34 - 14.05.06 Day 27

[Peliman]

Goodness, not only a second breakfast but third one as well. Will there be court tomorrow?

 

[minor4th]

All getting so very complicated. Is everyone sure Stipp heard "help, help, help" both before and after last set of bangs ? I only recall him hearing them once before the last bangs ? Anyone got a link to the parts of his testimony that notes he heard two sets ?

No, Dr Stipp only heard the help, help, help after the last bangs. His wife, however, heard them between the two sets of bangs. The Burgers also heard the help, help, help in between the two sets of bangs.

I think Dr Stipp just misplaced the yelling for help

 

[PPKik]

I don't know if this site is linked anywhere. I found it accidentally and serendipitously. I don't have enough Gb's to keep streaming. It's radio with sound only. Earlier during the "tea break" someone was saying Gerrie Nel would prosecute own grandmother, because his belief in the law, the principle of law, would break the "blood bond," unlike the Pistorius family, where that bond is very strong.

I look forward to all the new comments after a few hours of sleep during the adjournment. :seeya:

Right now someone is talking about Frank, who was "sleeping in a room off the kitchen."

http://www.courtchatter.tv/pistoriusradio.htm

 

[Trooper]

The nuances of the law in SA has been difficult for the board to interpret and nail down. So unless there is an SA lawyer around, we'll just have to wait and see. I do remember someone posting something from an SA lawyer once that said he believes OP coils get CH.

that's just not true. SA law is very straightforward, it may be difficult for Americans, but only Americans a bit slow on the uptake. SA law is as clear as a bell, and follows in a linear fashion , based on sound principles..

 

[Cherwell]

I can - the open balcony was directly opposite their own balcony. The bathroom was on the other side

I think you have that the wrong way round. OP's bedroom balcony is on the other side of the house from the Nhlengethwas. Facing towards the other ndn house.

The bathroom & toilet at the back facing directly towards the Stipps' house.

 

[zwiebel]

The next witness is going to arrive lunch time. I doubt they will take lunch just as she arrives. But they can't go all day without food so....

My guess is, we will hear the next witness and by 1 or 2pm, court will adjourn for the day again.

 

[lithgow1]

The nuances of the law in SA has been difficult for the board to interpret and nail down. So unless there is an SA lawyer around, we'll just have to wait and see. I do remember someone posting something from an SA lawyer once that said he believes OP coils get CH.

That what I was getting at basically - that I can't see him avoiding CH and also can't see how he avoids the 'intentional shooting of unidentified intruder', especially with his supposed firearms handling knowledge. But as you say this aspect is complicated and difficult to pin down.

 

[ColonelMustard]

That was my take too...I feel kinda sorry for SAPS to be honest. They were just trying to investigate a woman's death, do their actual job, and they're being called rude in front of an international audience for not sending the guy a hand-engraved invitation to a formal interview?!?

Generations of overt and oppressive racism change a person. The lens through which they view the world, reasonably but unfortunately, involves the "presumption of racism" toward them in every word and deed from others No doubt, racism is still as active as it is in the US, just more subtle and under the radar - except for the person the receiving end, that is!

 

[minor4th]

I think you have that the wrong way round. OP's bedroom balcony is on the other side of the house from the Nhlengethwas. Facing towards the other ndn house.

The bathroom & toilet at the back facing directly towards the Stipps' house.

I think I'm right on this - the bedroom balcony is next to the N's house, and the toilet is on the direct opposite side of the house; it's back windows face the Stipps'

 

[BritsKate]

I'm less clear re Mrs S and don't have her hearing the help x 3, would need to check her evidence at some later time.

She couldn't make out what the male voice was screaming. She clearly heard both a man and woman though, in between the bangs. Here's Lisa's take on her testimony:
http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/24/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-14/

 

[MeeBee]

that's just not true. SA law is very straightforward, it may be difficult for Americans, but only Americans a bit slow on the uptake. SA law is as clear as a bell, and follows in a linear fashion , based on sound principles..

It's not though. Clearly there are those here who want it to be and think it's more black and white here than any other law, but as we've discussed before, there are certain points of law in SA, much like the US that must be applied at discretion based in the finders personal interpretations. The judge will, for instance, have to decide if OP behaved as a reasonable person if she accepts his version. That is subjective. Among other things, the judge has decisions to make.

As an American, I'm used to being called stupid on the internet. It's a ridiculous stereotype. No skin off my back.

 

[Trooper]

It's not though. Clearly there are those here who want it to be and think it's more black and white here than any other law, but as we've discussed before, there are certain points of law in SA, much like the US that must be applied at discretion based in the finders personal interpretations. The judge will, for instance, have to decide if OP behaved as a reasonable person if she accepts his version. That is subjective. Among other things, the judge has decisions to make.

well yes.. I thought that was obvious, that the judge has decisions to make... was there any doubt of that?? I think that's what she is paid to do..

 

[G.bng]

is it possible there were shouts for help between the two sets of bangs, and then further shouts for help after?

Nope. Not according to my memory it ain't... of course, not unless my memory is wrong.

 

[Cher352]

It's the other way around. Balcony at the front and bathroom at the rear.

The Stipp's house is at the rear, only 60 metres away and directly facing the open bathroom window.

I knew that the BR faced the front, don't know what I was thinking this morning guess it is because I haven't been to bed yet. I think it was that photo shown this morning that threw me off thinking this was the back of the houses for some reason.

 

[zwiebel]

Oh. forgot. It's a bank (national) holiday in SA tomorrow. There won't be any court session.

 

[whiterum]

Fair enough. I was just commenting originally on how differently Pistorius acted compared to other people when it came to ensuring the safety of other people in their homes. His utter failure to do this has been something people sceptical of his story have commented on from the time he first gave his version of events at the bail hearing.

Exactly, this is how normal people react, the closest people to them are checked first before brandishing a gun willy - nilly and shooting through toilet doors at noises. OP especially so, since he had gun safety training and also apparently had near misses in the past in which case he should have been hyperaware.

 

[MeeBee]

well yes.. I thought that was obvious, that the judge has decisions to make... was there any doubt of that?? I think that's what she is paid to do..

Yes, I mean regarding to applying the law after deciding whose version she accepts. If the law were so straightforward she wouldn't have one to make after that.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Think I need to use the break to mull things over.
I am quite confused by the neighbours testimony.
If they woke up to a single bang and were then alert enough to hear someone crying out I can't see any reason why at least Mrs N wouldn't have heard the second set of bangs .
I am therefore leaning towards them having woken to the second set of bangs and slept through the bulk of the shooting itself.

 

[Trooper]

Certainly, Judge Masipa has decisions to make, but her decisions are bound and binded by the parameters set by the Govt Of the Republic of South Africa. she just cant hive off into unknown and unregulated areas of her own. The parameters set for Judge Masipa's decision are quite clear, and transparent. nothing mysterious about them at all.

 

[G.bng]

So he fought eh. I think South African law believes you've committed a crime if you choose 'fight' above 'flight' when the latter is an option.

And UK law, and most, if not all, of European countries law from what I read... and not sure Canada, NZ and Aussie land are not the same too... if correct that would just leave the US as the anomaly !