Trial Discussion Thread #35 - 14.05.08 Day 28

[zwiebel]

I was a little blinded by science, but I think a fair summary of that witnesses' testimony is that she is a very safety conscious anaesthetist, that normally food (except sometimes high-fat and insoluble veggie fibre) should be digested within 6 hours, and on rare occasions she has encountered patient situations where it has not been.

Does anyone think there is a possibility that sometimes patients would be daft enough to fib about the last time they ate?

 

[JudgeJudi]

Sheesh. 3 feeds and still problems.

30 min adjournment to consult with Saymaan

 

[Warren Levine]

Since when has cheese been in a stir fry.. ?

Oh, GOD! Don't bring on the reverse peristalsis, please! /gag

 

[Interested Bystander]

Munching on another piece of Pumpkin Pot Pie, but can't understand why there's a break after 45 minutes? Did someone put the tea on too high a flame?

It is because the DT did not provide the PT with the anaesthetist's report until this morning. They need time to read it.

 

[Cher352]

Since when has cheese been in a stir fry.. ?

It was brought up earlier in the trial that they also had cheese that night. Can't remember if it was before, after or at the same time.

 

[patCee]

This channel has been OK so far,

http://www.channel4.com/news/pistorius-trial-murder-watch-live-video

 

[Interested Bystander]

Whoop, Whoop Radio is discussing salient points of the case if anyone is interested. The alarm is being discussed as well as reopening the case. What else is to come in the discussion I am not sure.

http://whoopwhoop.tv/pistoriusradio.htm

 

[zwiebel]

Munching on another piece of Pumpkin Pot Pie, but can't understand why there's a break after 45 minutes? Did someone put the tea on too high a flame?

Flame? Tea?

Gosh, my mother would have fainted at the thought. Hot but not boiling water was drummed into me. And never reheated - that was 'stewed' tea and strictly forbidden.

 

[Cher352]

Sheesh. 3 feeds and still problems.

30 min adjournment to consult with Saymaan

I know, have tried 3 myself this morning usually don't have this much trouble.

Anyone know if Wild About ever came up?

 

[zwiebel]

It was brought up earlier in the trial that they also had cheese that night. Can't remember if it was before, after or at the same time.

Was it? I can't remember that. I know Prof S said there where whitish fragments in her stomach contents that appeared to be cheese, but I remember thinking when we heard they ate chicken stir fry that it might actually have been partially digested chicken, that might look similar?

 

[Suthrnqt]

Flame? Tea?

Gosh, my mother would have fainted at the thought. Hot but not boiling water was drummed into me. And never reheated - that was 'stewed' tea and strictly forbidden.

Well, don't tell Mom, but here in the South, we like our tea cold, with lots of ice!!

 

[Warren Levine]

I know, have tried 3 myself this morning usually don't have this much trouble.

Anyone know if Wild About ever came up?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor.../Watch-live-Oscar-Pistorius-murder-trial.html works fine.

The link to Wild About Trial had a virus-laded fake Adobe Reader update popover I had to fight three times quickly, so I just killed my browser and went to the above link, which always works for me (as long as the dolts at SABC remember to turn the bloody cameras on).

 

[G.bng]

Since when has cheese been in a stir fry.. ?

IIRC Saayman said some white matter could have been cheese.

 

[lithgow1]

Why did Nel need a postponement? Didn't he have CL's report? I don't understand these breaks. When is the tea break?!

My understanding is he didn't get the report till this morning - think he said that. He's just been given a witness that he doesn't know what she will testify, it's a crucial part of the case, she has testified on many factors to give an overall impression of 'doubt' but there are specifics that need to be addressed. Nel will want to go into all of them so needs to consult with his team, especially the pathologist. This is not his area and you can't expect him to just 'wing it' on what to ask. As is he did pretty good in that short time I reckon. It's all fair and reasonable IMO.

And yep, he probably does want a cuppa but I don't mind that since I want another one too.

 

[Warren Levine]

Well, don't tell Mom, but here in the South, we like our tea cold, with lots of ice!!

My recently croaked mother-in-law would never let the water boil, so my wife always had lukewarm tea or (gak) instant coffee.

I'm a more traditional New Yorker, so I drink my coffee iced.

 

[G.bng]

Roux has been a bit devious here. He knows an anaesthiologist cannot comment on pathology. So much of what Nel wants determined she cannot comment on. Also a bit naughty that the DT did not give the PT a copy of the anaesthiologist's report until today.

Wouldn't put it past any advocate, Nel or Roux, but here imo Roux is just going on what he sees his client needs on several points, i.e. create a reasonable doubt which is what he obvioulsy wants to do here. And iirc wasn't it Nel who bought up pre-op minimums for gastric emptying in his case after Saayman's cross by Roux?

 

[atthelake]

Flame? Tea?

Gosh, my mother would have fainted at the thought. Hot but not boiling water was drummed into me. And never reheated - that was 'stewed' tea and strictly forbidden.

And some of us put the bag in a mug, stick it in the microwave and hit 2 minutes.... and once done dips the bag a few times, takes the bag out and done!

 

[Interested Bystander]

I was watching on u-tube - that response was excellent. My thoughts: at the cross-exam she shows a reluctance to concede what would seem logical. Nel has shown all the factors that should, in a healthy young woman, account for gastric emptying after eight hours, and now added hours before RS was taken to the mortuary. The 'moment' for me was when she first would not concede that in a normal situation RS would have been assumed to have an empty stomach in terms of performing an operation (or something like that - Nel's 1st 'yes' or 'no' type question). I think she is going to have an uncomfortable time after the break if she keeps trying to block or fob off the forensic/scientific evidence here.

This is where Roux has been clever/devious because she cannot answer forensic questions as it is not her discipline.

 

[atthelake]

Well, don't tell Mom, but here in the South, we like our tea cold, with lots of ice!!

:gasp: You forgot the overwhelming amount of sugar that is added! You are a TRUE southerner are you not? And must be added when the tea is still warm so that more sugar can be dissolved in the tea!

 

[minor4th]

Nel gets her to say that after 4-6 hours a stomach would be empty. She says 6 hours minimum.

Then Nel goes to gastric emptying after death. She says its not her field.

Nel: If we have an 8 hour delay after Reeva ate (Oscar said she ate at 7pm) and she died, let's make it three, you would expect her stomach to be empty. If she was a normal person, don't look for exceptions.

Lundgren: She's saying Reeva ate vegetables that contain a lot of fiber and that the veggies, together with lots of fat, would remain in the stomach longer than normal.

Nel says that Saayman identified actual vegetable matter in Reeva's stomach.

Lundgren says all she saw was a green, gelatinous mass. No vegetables. Show me a picture.

Nel says it's in Saayman's report. Saayman was able to identify vegetable matter in the stomach without ever knowing what Reeva ate. A year later Oscar confirmed Saayman's finding that they Reeva had eaten vegetables. Oscar said that they ate at 7 pm. Nel asks if it is possible for actual food to be identified in the stomach that long after a meal?

Lundgren says she can't comment. But then goes on to comment.


Nel's going to take her apart if she tries to argue with him.

I don't know - I see it a bit differently. She's really not giving an opinion on time of the last meal. She's basically just saying that it's impossible to know, and gave 6 hours as a minimum time you would expect gastric emptying, but it can be delayed for several reasons.

I also don't think Saayman identified the foods - he said vegetable, not "green beans" or "broccoli" or "cauliflower." And he also didn't say "cheese" he said white/gray particles with a cheese-like texture or appearance.