Trial Discussion Thread #35 - 14.05.08 Day 28

[ColonelMustard]

OH MY LORD...this 'expert' contacted the DT on May 6th cuz she felt sorry for Oscar?

:floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh:


Oh, by the way...she is a social worker,,,,

Yes, but so is M'Lady.

 

[Cherwell]

OH MY LORD...this 'expert' contacted the DT on May 6th cuz she felt sorry for Oscar?

:floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh:


Oh, by the way...she is a social worker,,,,

I wonder if any more Oscar fans will now be encouraged to phone Mr Roux to offer their services to the defence.

 

[sleuth-d-]

Well yes of course if she was hit in the hip first and then fell back on the magazine rack( which is what I believe ) and is the states case then I don't see how she could have still been close to the door when she was shot in the arm .
It is confusing to me anyway ,I can't visualise what the defence are trying to come up with now.
Even with rapid fire she must have been crumpling and falling backwards with the hip shot therefore she can't have still been close to the door. She can't have pulled herself onto the magazine rack after been shot twice.
If she had been hit in the arm first the hole in the door would have been higher
It is obvious the defence want to remove the possibility of a gap in the shots giving Reeva time to try and protect herself but I can't see how they are going to do that .
So I am intrigued how they are going to prove this tomorrow.

first shot
[close to door - hands go up in defence-reflex to sound - bullet hits hip - body start to drop]

second shot
[close to door - as body drops - bullet hits right arm still held up in defence position - body propelled backwards - right arm drops]

third shot [most likely] or fourth shot misses.

third shot or fourth shot [most likely]
[body dropping/falling back towards back of toilet area - left arm still in defence position - bullet passes through left hand fingers and hits forehead - body lands on mag rack/head falls onto toilet rim]


i think the splinter marks on the arm injury, closely grouped around the wound, are key to whether this is more probable than mangena's version.

 

[Interested Bystander]

95% of this anesthetists patients undergoing a gastrectomy will have a pristine stomach after 6 hours

A pity Nel didn't get to hear that. It is possible they were given premedication to clear the stomach and upper bowel. Do you have a link please.

 

[ColonelMustard]

she has a case of Oscaradoorus

HAAAaaaaaa!

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I think whatever the defence say there will be a big cross exam from Nel on the shot sequence .
Can Mangena be called back ? Or will he just advise Nel ?

 

[crowmarsh]

I've noticed it on the Sky News 'round up of the day in court' broadcast at 9:30pm every day of the trial .. she seems to be most pleased with herself about the way Oscar speaks with her, I was fairly horrified when I first heard the way she referred to it .. I just thought to myself, this bloke has killed another woman with 4 bullets and you're falling at his feet ?? !

I have noticed that too, and it is very unprofessional. Oscar told her that he did not speak to GM and that seemed to be all the evidence she needed Did not mention that other people also insist that he did make contact with her.

 

[Hope4More]

My favorite quote of this trial...

(Judge to the Gallery) "You possibly think this is entertainment. It is not. Please restrain yourself."

Spot on.

 

[BritsKate]

I think whatever the defence say there will be a big cross exam from Nel on the shot sequence .
Can Mangena be called back ? Or will he just advise Nel ?

He'll consult for now but could be called back if the State seeks (and the judge grants) permission to reopen their case.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

first shot
[close to door - hands go up in defence-reflex to sound - bullet hits hip - body start to drop]

second shot
[close to door - as body drops - bullet hits right arm still held up in defence position - body propelled backwards - right arm drops]

third shot [most likely] or fourth shot misses.

third shot or fourth shot [most likely]
[body dropping/falling back towards back of toilet area - left arm still in defence position - bullet passes through left hand fingers and hits forehead - body lands on mag rack/head falls onto toilet rim]


i think the splinter marks on the arm injury, closely grouped around the wound, are key to whether this is more probable than mangena's version.

Obviously I have never been shot so can't really know for sure what my reactions would be but in the past my natural reactions to injury has always been to put my hand where it is painful and if falling I would try and break my fall with my hands which is what I did a couple of weeks ago when I sprained my ankle .
As I said I guess I will just have to listen very carefully tomorrow and see what is suggested.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I can think of one very macabre scenario in which the enraged OP having shot twice through the door (bullet holes A & B) one of which hits Reeva in the hip. She falls backwards onto the magazine rack. OP then removes the right-most panel enters the toilette with the panel in hand, positions or props the bottom panel inline with the right side of her head/arm (which is now resting near or on the toilette), and fires 2 shots through it ... that would explain:

• the small diameter of the grouping of the splinters observed around the arm wound, and her forearm
• the slight curvature of the bullet pathway through the door at bullet hole D as observed by W - this would be due to mobile status vs fixed status of the panel
• the distribution of the brain matter on the toilette lid - whereas imo, it is somewhat difficult to reconcile the brain tissue pattern of distribution from bullet pathway of holes C or D through this panel fixed to the door
• the large splinter found in the toilet bowl/basin
• the large bullet fragment found in the toilet/basin
• the possible 5th cartridge found in the toilet/basin (my speculation)

I know it seems far fetched, but so does the unexplained pellet hole in the bedroom door, the unexplained damage to the bedroom door and locks, the unexplained damage to the bathroom tiles and the bath's metal plumbing cover.

Nooooo please - please, no! <---- Does this also fit with timing?
Prosthetics or not?
The last sentence I don't understand ...?

 

[G.bng]

Can anyone summarize the salient/important points of that last witnesses' testimony? I am afraid I didn't quite grasp what they were.

Why is it so important for defence to have Reeva's splinter wounds matching splinter patterns on the door?

I first thought it would make no difference but on reflection it makes a big difference if Reeva's arm were nearer the door when shot, and splinters found in that wound do appear to indicate the arm it was taking into account none were found at the head wound site which was roughly at the same distance from the door as the arm going with Mangena's opinion.

And the arm being nearer the door and being hit by the second shot at very least lessens the time gap between the first and second shots Burger claims she heard, because if the common ground is she was standing near the door for the hip shot then the arm shot would have to have had to hit Reeva while she was in the process of going down from the hip shot. How much does it favour, difficult to say but his testimony and credibility are going to be very important to the defence imo.

 

[BritsKate]

My favorite quote of this trial...

(Judge to prosecutor Nel) "You possibly think this is entertainment. It is not. Please restrain yourself."

Spot on.

Pretty sure that comment was to the gallery though it was immediately after Nel apologised to the court for his laughter.

Nel:

"(laughter) No, no, I apologise my lady for laughing, I won't do it again. But I was surprised by the answer. I apologise, I really do."

SOUNDBITE: (English) Thokozile Masipa, Judge:

"I hope it doesn't happen again."

Nel: "I'm sorry my lady?"

Masipa: "I hope it doesn't happen again."

Nel: "No, no, it won't. I apologise."

Masipa: "And I also want to say something to people out there. You possibly think this is entertainment. It is not. So please restrain yourselves."

Nel: "Is that the gallery, my lady?"

Masipa: "The gallery, yes."

Video of the bolded portion available at link too.

http://www.aparchive.com/metadata/Athletics-Pistorius-20-upd-2/484157349d804529289d12b82aa0add8

 

[Gbtaketwo]

quoting the juror13 blog

"04:11:25 &#8211; Incoming call from 6940 (Peet Van Zyl) &#8211; 49 seconds

A few more GPRS connections

Then after this time, all incoming calls were diverted to the voice mailbox center. No outgoing calls were made.

The phone was pinging to the tower closest to Oscar&#8217;s up until 8:00am and then it left the location (meaning that somebody took it with them when they left Oscar&#8217;s house and it wasn&#8217;t the police)"

.....
has this been looked into?
1
if the phone was pinging the tower closest to op's up until 08:00, the only way to know it left this location, would be if it started to ping a second location, and a third, and so on. surely then it's movement could be roughly tracked and matched to a person's movements/address... the police must know the phone's route.
2
i can't find the time that op was arrested/taken from his house to the police station on the morning of 14th [last photos of him were in the garage at 07:40].
3
carise says she left the house with aimee [and reeva's bag] in a car, and that they followed op in a policecar, going to the police station.
4
is anyone else known to have left at around 08:00?


http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/25/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-15-state-rests/#comments

The pinging of phone towers is a really great point that I have not thought of before. Can see totally that this should certainly have narrowed down the movements of this phone even though it was a couple of weeks after the shooting.
I wonder if anything more will ever come out about this .

 

[crowmarsh]

Ugh Nel is really bugging me. This is just a total emotional argument from Nel that "it's all about Oscar" and when a witness makes a comment, he says "No, no, no - you would have told us that" suggesting that the witness has completely changed her testimony in the last 5 minutes

but she is there to speak about emotions

 

[ColonelMustard]

Like Woolie's accent and tone . . . :-D

Generalizing, based on what I've heard during this trial, SA accents sounds better by men than women. The women's voices have all been grating and highly annoying -- except M'Lady.

 

[G.bng]

they certainly don't want a gap between the four shots. so no
bang...bangbangbang

i.e. don't want any notion of the hip shot first, followed by a re-aiming of the gun.

two shots close to the door makes the four quick shots a possibility. the guy has still to explain the missed shot though. although i guess it could have come first, third, or last using his version.

Don't you think more likely last, or at very least third, to explain it all as too quick for screams?

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Pretty sure that comment was to the gallery though it was immediately after Nel apologised to the court for his laughter.



http://www.aparchive.com/metadata/Athletics-Pistorius-20-upd-2/484157349d804529289d12b82aa0add8

I missed this part as I have been attempting to syringe feed my poor sick cat ,what was this in relation to ?
TIA
Just noted your link ,thanks will go and listen

 

[DebinGA]

Wolmaran's conclusions: http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-cou...creates-oscar-shooting-1.1685371#.U2uioyhbcdU

In a nutshell, any of the 4 shots could have left the "ricochet mark" on the wc wall, Reeva's arm was 6-20 cm from the door when hit, Reeva was likely standing when hit in her hip but it's impossible to determine the order of the shots ... and the bullets weren't black talons but similar "mushrooming" hollow points (Ranger something I think).

 

[jay-jay]

Obviously I have never been shot so can't really know for sure what my reactions would be but in the past my natural reactions to injury has always been to put my hand where it is painful and if falling I would try and break my fall with my hands which is what I did a couple of weeks ago when I sprained my ankle .
As I said I guess I will just have to listen very carefully tomorrow and see what is suggested.

When Mangena testified, he was basically saying that the automatic reaction would be for her to have protected her head even though there must've been incredible pain in her hip, because she knew that that was the next thing coming and her instinct to protect her vital organs (in this case, her brain) would've over-ridden her pain at that point in time.