Trial Discussion Thread #35 - 14.05.08 Day 28

[steveml]

Putting that ditzy social worker on today with the defense ending on Tuesday was bizarre. Articles I've read say she only met with OP on Feb. 15 when he was in jail. Where's the psych professional who Roux promised would explain OP's feeling of vulnerability? Where's the screaming test OP told Nel had been done of him screaming?

I'm not sure she was ditzy, perhaps an allowance has to be made on the proviso that English is probably not her first language, and she will have had little or no court preparation time, which is usually a given for witnesses.

It's likely to hold very little sway in Judge Masipa's mind, but I think it was commending that someone felt strongly enough to approach the court and volunteer their opinion.
I didn't expect her to be allowed to testify though - that was a surprise.

My take on it is that it probably wasn't a great deal of benefit, but I'm sure it didn't do much harm.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

A bit about Probation Officers in SA. The service seems to be young and developed over the past decade. Whilst offender responsibility is inherent there are restorative and diversion services, some by referral to private companies. The emphasis does seem to be on young offenders/juveniles though not exclusively.

http://www.westerncape.gov.za/general-publication/who-are-probation-officers

I suspect the witness, EV may be inexperienced re adult, serious offenders and was out of her depth particularly re OP's highly emotional presentation.

Thanks for the link.
Yes she did seem a bit out of her depth but then on the other hand OP's behaviour on the stand often reminded me of a naughty child and she has experience with them

 

[crowmarsh]

But she is not a witness. She was on the witness list but has not and will not be called. Hence the lawyers saying the Judge can do nothing.

If she were still a witness I would be all for him be hauled over the coals for it. Unless Miss Myers wishes to open a case herself nothing more will be heard of it within this trial.

If the state re open their case though she may be called

 

[steveml]

BIB That would be described as "peri-menopausal"

Thanks. I'm gonna try and fit that into a conversation at weekend.

My mates down the pub won't know what's hit them.

:smile:

 

[Interested Bystander]

If the state re open their case though she may be called

It would be very interesting to know if that is likely. I have been hoping our resident attorney Minor4th would pronounce on this. The PT chose not to choose her for the trial and probably they had a reason why. I cannot think she could add much to the case and I really don't think they would entertain using her just to get at OP for his comment, unpleasant though it was.

 

[Viper]

A bit about Probation Officers in SA. The service seems to be young and developed over the past decade. Whilst offender responsibility is inherent there are restorative and diversion services, some by referral to private companies. The emphasis does seem to be on young offenders/juveniles though not exclusively.

http://www.westerncape.gov.za/general-publication/who-are-probation-officers

I suspect the witness, EV may be inexperienced re adult, serious offenders and was out of her depth particularly re OP's highly emotional presentation.

I do wonder about the level of managerial supervision with regard to her putting herself forward to one side in such a subjective way.

That may be, but it was an act of desperation by the DT to actually put her on the stand, IMO. To think that the millions of dollars that Ozzie has paid to produce his defense has whithered down to a last minute shot in the dark by bringing this obvious #Pistorian in to court to say he felt sorry for himself after he murdered Reeva, its astonishing!

I would put them dragging in an anesthesiologist in that same category. Why bring her in at this point if it wasn't for the fact that their first expert, Professor Botha, failed miserably.

I for one am getting tired of the DT experts and other witnesses. It was described that Roux and Oldwage were the best in SA and the State had a difficult circumstantial case on their hands. Both of those things have proven out to be false or far from the mark.

To go from claiming that the DT will show that the first shot was to Reeva's head to now showing that it is impossible to say what the order of the shots hitting Reeva is and it is impossible to say where Reeva was at during any of the shots is just very disappointing to say the least.

Oldwage was busy today outside of the court tracking down new gastric emptying witnesses and interviewing #Pistorian(s) that have called to volunteer to testify on OPs behalf. As well as monitoring Dixon's ongoing experiments.

 

[aoibhinn]

Many apologies, I didn't see this before I asked for a link, so please ignore that post. I am not listening at the moment because I have serious housewifely chores to do, like shopping and dinner to prepare.

I can see I shall have to find some way to listen on a portable device. Perhaps if I plug in some earphones into my ipad and place it into a bag and then tie that round my neck I may be able to keep up with events. It is a no-no in our house to listen aloud to the trial (I am outnumbered) :floorlaugh:. I can just see their faces when they find me in the kitchen with a bag round my neck and earphones on, attempting to whip up something scrumptious for dinner.

Hi InterestedBystander :seeya: You can get bluetooth headphones for your iPad. I just checked Ebay and see them for as little as $10. They are wireless and have a range of about 10m (33'). So you could set your iPad down or have it in your bag and move freely while you listen

 

[steveml]

Taurus parabellum 9mm . . . . ?

Yep, that's the pistol OP used. Very little difference between a 9mm Parabellum, a Luger and a Glock. The parabellum was designed by the Luger company.

The Glock 17 is known as the original parabellum.

As the Black Talon discussion may have been irrelevant due to the possibility that one of the ballistics experts didn't identify the bullets correctly, I'm not going to indicate what the name 'parabellum' means as this would probably introduce a whole new line of speculation.

 

[crowmarsh]

I think there is near unanimous consensus here that OP is self absorbed to the point of being a flat out narcissist, that he is incapable of taking responsibility for anything, that he is quick to anger, that he loves guns way way too much, that he is a lousy boyfriend and that he isn't and never was the person so many apparently admired.

But......he's not on trial for being an unlikable person, for which he should be grateful because his unlikability sure seems to rile up the "Gallery. "

I think its a little more than being "unlikable"

 

[Nausicaa]

[snip] I --and many many others in that 99.9% --genuinely admired how huge her heart was to be able to transcend all the anger and disgust being voiced about JA and to see her a human being whose life might have been different if but. [snip]

Huge hearts can make good sleuths - if in doubt, take a few minutes to re-read Chesterton's The Secret of Father Brown. YOu can find the whole series of the saintly detective's adventures on the same site if by any chance you don't know them already.

 

[G.bng]

IIRC (emphasis added!) Others would have a better recollection about this than I do, but... He said that he was near the entrance when he fired all of the shots, bracing himself by holding his left hand against the wall. The one spent casing ejected in to the hallway matches that, but the other three are inside of the bathroom and the trajectory rods show him moving left to right inside the bathroom as he continued to fire.

With OP's to-ing and frow-ing you can ascertain OP's position by the casings ? From my research studies demonstrate that positioning a shooter by spent casing is extremely unreliable, and that's without factoring in that Mangena refused to draw conclusions from the casing positions precisely because, according to him, they could have been "kicked around".

 

[steveml]

I really don't think the Steenkamp family needed to hear that the bullet fragment the guy pulled out of the toilet bowl had gone through Reeva's head before landing there. The unnecessary gore brought in by the DEFENSE is just amazing. WTF is he trying to prove? Innocence or barbarism?

I guess you were against the early images being displayed in court by the PT team then? These will have been far more disturbing than any narrative could be.

I personally don't have a problem either way. As long as the system's fair for all concerned.

 

[crowmarsh]

bbm

ITA. That whole sideshow is ridiculous, imo. In fact, I'd suggest that what he said to her was not only not sinister, but more likely indicative of innocence than the contrary. How would "how can you sleep at night" be anything other than an appeal to the conscience of the person it's directed at? Certainly not a threat in any way shape or form.

jmo

Can you explain what you mean. OP is appealing to the conscience of GM. I dont understand

 

[Interested Bystander]

Hi InterestedBystander :seeya: You can get bluetooth headphones for your iPad. I just checked Ebay and see them for as little as $10. They are wireless and have a range of about 10m (33'). So you could set your iPad down or have it in your bag and move freely while you listen

Many thanks for that. I will plumb into Ebay and Amazon and see what they have. At the moment I use over-the-head earphones and they are a bit of a pain (make my ears hurt) after a while.

 

[G.bng]

June... During the trial of Jodi Arias a certain long time poster who is incredibly well respected on WS dared to say that she felt empathy for JA. 99.9% of fellow posters disagreed and couldn't imagine how that empathy was possible. I was in that 99.9% .

Difference is, I --and many many others in that 99.9% --genuinely admired how huge her heart was to be able to transcend all the anger and disgust being voiced about JA and to see her a human being whose life might have been different if but.

Expressing that kind of empathy here takes guts.Bravo. Doesn't mean the poster I mention or likely you "supports" the killer, is trying to justify the killing, or is trying to minimize the lives taken.

But for the grace of God there go I.
PD I am not Christian nor even religious but I still think it is a very profound and meaningful expression of the human condition and could serve just as well those with another, or indeed no, religion.

 

[weeeva]

Like another poster said, it is as if some people are watching a different trial!

And are still prepared to doggedly believe every word of OP's "version", despite the fact that he has been proven on numerous occasions to be a liar.

I'm quite fascinated by the mentality it takes to get to this point, and I know that OP's supporters will probably scream like a woman for my suggesting this, but I am wondering if there is not a tiny, subliminal element of misogyny involved in their thinking somewhere down the line...

We are not allowed to insult one another's mentality on this site, or get personal. Just because some people have a different point of view from the majority does not mean that they are misogynistic or supporters on Oscar Pistorius.

 

[crowmarsh]

I'm not so sure about that.

Link

Excellent how did you find that link so quickly

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I'm trying to manage attachments the first time ...

Can't help, when I today saw WW (CNN Live Feed), I immediately thought of Olli:

 

[crowmarsh]

More damage to soda cans because it's easier to see when you're shooting. That's all. And I bet those who disapprove are all townies and not very good at Scrabble either.:twocents:

I am not disapproving but saddened that some find it a form of entertainment to play with guns so many more enriching ways to spend time

 

[crasshopper]

I'm wondering about Lundrgen's description of Reeva as "pre-menopausal" as a factor that may have slowed down the stomach-digestion phase.
She was under 30 and therefore not pre-menopausal in layman's terms, but I see from Googling it that the term is sometimes used in medical contexts to deisgnate the whole period from onset of menstruation to the menopause. But on that definition, is it really true that female stomach digestion is significantly delayed for the whole of the period of thirty to forty years in which they are "pre-menstrual"? Is it not rather that stomach digestion is only significantly slowed down in the much shorter period when fertility really tails off - a stage which Reeva had not yet reached?

CL may have misspoke?? But articles claim she stated "premenopausal"I know little about factors she described and how they affect gastric emptying. In a normal healthy individual at rest the composition of the meal ingested is primary determinant. Liquids faster than solids, carbohydrates quickly etc.

I did see that peri-menopausal women may have delayed gastric emptying and post menopausal as well. Reeva was premenopausal, as you stated, so this shouldn't be a factor.

Cannot find anything yet that claims gastric emptying reliably varies during the various portions of the month in a normal premenopausal woman still cycling.


ASIDE

Nel should have called Roux and the witness on this one:

"Roux, up for re-examination, chose a mathematical path to rubbish Nel’s mathematical path. He pointed out that 200ml of food was still in Steenkamp’s stomach at 11am the next morning. If Saayman was correct and Steenkamp ate at 1am, then – using the 10% of total food measure – Steenkamp would have had to have eaten 5 litres of food at 1am. Roux’s point was that all this speculation can only ever be just that: speculation. Lundgren agreed."

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2014-05-08-pistorius-trial-week-seven-day-three/#.U2vaqcu9KSN

Roux refers to 1 am to 11 am, which is not at all applicable.

The only time periods to be considered should be from 7pm - 3:05 am -DT contention or 1 am - 3:17 am PT contention.

Gastric emptying should effectively cease after death. I don't know if the pyloric sphincter relaxes like the anal sphincter and urethra do post mortem. I acnnot find anything that adresses post mortem emptying. Reeva was possibly in flight or fight mode near her death so GI motility in general would be minimal.

Although gastric "enzymes" could continue to work in theory, like a test tube under certain conditions, they are temperature and pH ependent. Short or continued digestion by enzymes would only change the 'consistency' of the gastric contents and not the volume of those contents.

Someone asked earlier about the volume. My understanding is that the pathologist measures the entire contents. Yes, part of the volume are secretions, acid, enzymes, etc. Ingested liquids empty much faster than solids. My best guess was hers was sludge like partially digested food with yet undigested vegetable matter containing secretions, enzymes and acid, all measured in toto.


Way behind, very much appreciate the many posts and mini transcripts.