Trial Discussion Thread #36 - 14.05.09 Day 29

[Duchy]

Good morning everyone!! I started late so was reading from the start of the thread. Thank you all for the input, it's great to be able to catch up.

Am I alone in my Nel fan club? :loveyou: Huge crush ....

I like him too :blushing: Anyone know how tall he is? That could be a deal breaker. I can't see why so many of you are attracted to Mangela though.

 

[Duchy]

Whew, that was one highly charged session.

A lot of Sleuths have just left to get some sleep.

I'll bet M'lady is taking a little nap, right now, too.

Nel has a smile on his face, Roux has an ice pack on his head,

OP is trying to figure out who to verbally accost,

and Wollie has no idea where he is or what he's doing.

Dixon's chugging down another beer.

Tears steaming down my face here and got stitch in my side lol!

 

[steveml]

I thought the testimony was ok today.

Although we don't have a great deal of new information, there seemed to be at least a few concessions made with regard to parts of the ballistics evidence that both Captain Mangena and Woolie agreed on.

It's frustrating when expert witnesses don't concede anything and just try to prove the exact opposite of each others testimony.
Today there seemed to be a good deal of respect between both professionals and essentially the expert witnesses are there to use their knowledge and experience to establish the truth, irrespective of which side ultimately benefits.

Personally, I wish it happened more often.

 

[steveml]

I like him too :blushing: Anyone know how tall he is? That could be a deal breaker. I can't see why so many of you are attracted to Mangela though.

You'd probably like him for a while - until the first time you try to buy a pair of shoes without him knowing :wink:

 

[Interested Bystander]

This particular anesthesiologist (Lungren) did her PhD on deaths due to an anesthesia. I assume she is very knowledgeable about the minority of cases in which gastric emptying falls outside the normal ranges, leading to complications that are sometimes fatal when a patient is under anesthesia. That may have played a part in why she was selected.

As always, all of the above is just my opinion.

Please remember my post was about a knowledgeable gastroenterologist's opinion not mine but I do agree with him.

As far as I can remember, Lungren said on numerous occasions that she could not comment on various aspects as it was not her discipline. I suspect that Roux knew that this was the case and used it to his advantage.

There is no way he could call a gastroenterologist (the obvious choice as they routinely do large numbers of gastroscopies and would know exactly how a stomach looks after 6 hours fasting). Likely, that would scupper what he wanted the court to hear. Roux is not silly, he will only call a witness whom he thinks will help his case

 

[whiterum]

From memory, Woolie discovered and retrieved it from the toilet bowl after the police/PT reps had been and gone and missed it. He handed it over to the police.

I heard woolie say that too Gryffindor but last year if I remember right, Mr Perumal who also assessed the crime scene said it was he who, after seeing a mark on the toilet wall, realised that a spent bullet was in the toilet bowl and suggested it be retrieved.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Me. All the time.

Me too, if I see one I edit it but often the edit option has disappeared before it registers. lol

 

[whiterum]

I first read that as 'Love that shot with Magena's botttom' :blushing:

Hahaha !!

 

[Suthrnqt]

I first read that as 'Love that shot with Magena's botttom' :blushing:

Please direct me to the shot of Mangena's bottom. :blushing: Lol

 

[Suthrnqt]

You'd probably like him for a while - until the first time you try to buy a pair of shoes without him knowing :wink:

Do you think Mangena will care if I buy shoes? Because if that's a deal breaker, I can do barefoot.
:floorlaugh:

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Whew, that was one highly charged session.

A lot of Sleuths have just left to get some sleep.

I'll bet M'lady is taking a little nap, right now, too.

Nel has a smile on his face, Roux has an ice pack on his head,

OP is trying to figure out who to verbally accost,

and Wollie has no idea where he is or what he's doing.

Dixon's chugging down another beer.

:floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh:
(where has the animation gone ...???)


I'm always enthusiastic, when someone can express themselves so outstanding.

 

[AlexUK]

Did anyone just notice the size of Woolies briefcase? I was more like a suitcase and yet he's got no notes, no reports, no laptop/computer with all his findings on .. so what's he got in there then? :facepalm:

Oxygen

Defibrillator




*sorry!* :blushing:

 

[patCee]

Overall it seemed like a shambles to me and it's difficult to extract much that was of benefit to the DT. The tests re shots, and sounds were not convincing. It was also difficult, for me, to separate some of the information from the poor presentation. That and the seeming lack of planning, organisation and report writing, not remembering information, saying one thing and then the opposite lost all credibility.

Like Dixon's some of it sounded downright daft. Why allow yourself as an expert to be drawn into evidence about sound when you suffer from tinnitus? Can you link A, C, D to E? That is his brief, and he said I can't remember. Photos for notes, but photos blurred. On a positive note it got marginally better towards the end when Nel and Wolmaran had a good debate about the evidence. Harsh maybe but a shambles nevertheless. Sigh.

 

[Lyra500]

" And NEVER did I change any thing in my reports for the defense..."



[ Nel didn't even ask that question...he just offered that denial}

[ when my kids used to do that, I knew they were fibbing...lol]

Exactly.

Just like OP's totally unsolicited "I fetched Reeva's handbag and I didn't go through it"

 

[Viper]

I heard woolie say that too Gryffindor but last year if I remember right, Mr Perumal who also assessed the crime scene said it was he who, after seeing a mark on the toilet wall, realised that a spent bullet was in the toilet bowl and suggested it be retrieved.

That is what I remember too. It happened IIRC when Magena was doing his investigation with the lasers and such in the WC. Perumal laid claim to that astonishing observation back then to discredit SAPS, and W is laying claim to it today. One of them, perhaps both, are lying about what happened regarding the bullet in the blood filled toilet.

Saymaan left much of the bullet fragments in Reeva, they are dangerous because he could cut himself on their sharp edges and it was not necessary to collect them all. The bullet in the toilet would have been discovered at some point when the toilet was eventually flushed, but the advancement to bringing this case to trial and its outcome would not be affected by that.

 

[james83]

How can anyone with half a brain not see the obvious tailoring of evidence
Wolmaran's can't remember if he handed over a report prior to the trial?, really?.
Getting all cagey and defensive about his first report.
Give me strength.

 

[Duchy]

Did anyone just notice the size of Woolies briefcase? I was more like a suitcase and yet he's got no notes, no reports, no laptop/computer with all his findings on .. so what's he got in there then? :facepalm:

Could be:
Resus kit
fold away bed
Back brace
painkillers
Spare hearing aid plus batteries
Ear horn
English - Afrikaans dictionary circa 1900
heat rub
old filing case with nothing in it
Brainteaser - broken
pills
etc.

 

[JuneBug67]

Please remember my post was about a knowledgeable gastroenterologist's opinion not mine but I do agree with him.

As far as I can remember, Lungren said on numerous occasions that she could not comment on various aspects as it was not her discipline. I suspect that Roux knew that this was the case and used it to his advantage.

There is no way he could call a gastroenterologist (the obvious choice as they routinely do large numbers of gastroscopies and would know exactly how a stomach looks after 6 hours fasting). Likely, that would scupper what he wanted the court to hear. Roux is not silly, he will only call a witness whom he thinks will help his case

I thought use of an anaesthesiologist was interesting and tactical. I related it immediately to Nel's very effective question posed to a previous witness that basically seemed to scuttle much of the importance of most of the testimony in the area that might have helped the defence. At the time he finished that cross with the simple, effective point that thousands of operations are performed every day based on the assumptions he would like the court to accept. It was an elegant and compelling coda on everything that had come before. I thought it was a pretty good score for the prosecution. For me, this witness did blunt that and I thought it was an effective move by the defense.

I am really looking forward to hearing in the judgement how the stomach contents evidence was received and if and how it weighed on any outcome. Given the high standard of 'reasonable doubt' or the SA equivalent my sense is that it may ultimately be reluctantly set aside as too unreliable. But on the other hand the female assessor has asked questions on two occasions that might indicate it is pretty important to her. Also, we are not talking about a rash and razor thin judgement like in the Truscott case in Canada, we are talking about the difference between eating 8 hours before or seemingly many hours after that. Given that, they may be more comfortable with the nature of the probabilities. Finally, I think the fact that there are two females on the panel MAY mean the evidence is given less weight. Anybody care to wager a guess on what my thinking is there?

 

[Duchy]

3,4, and 5: Watches and cell phones and Frank?

:floorlaugh:

 

[Interested Bystander]

I like him too :blushing: Anyone know how tall he is? That could be a deal breaker. I can't see why so many of you are attracted to Mangela though.

Not my sort. He looks a bit too short for me to. Looking through photos of them both he looks to be about 5ft 6in. Roux is about 6ft (judged by photos showing him alongside OP who is just over 6ft in his prostheses).

I found this in a National Newspaper in the UK. It doesn't state his height but infers he is short.

“Nel, nicknamed "the pitbull", is diminutive and pugnacious and a sharp contrast to the tall, silver-haired, urbane Roux.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/12/barry-roux-gerrie-nel-oscar-pistorius-trial


Interestingly, I also came across this piece of information that I did not know but it goes someway for me in explaining why "Oldbu**er" is so pompous. He has come good, but late, from quite ordinary beginnings and looks as though it has gone to his head. He seems to have a need to give an air of superiority. Something we don't see in Roux and Nel.

"Roux’s junior advocate is Kenny Oldwage who was admitted to the Johannesburg Bar in 2002, prior to that he was a police officer."

http://www.courtchatter.com/p/oscar-pistorius-players.html


MOO