Trial Discussion Thread #36 - 14.05.09 Day 29

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Did anyone just notice the size of Woolies briefcase? I was more like a suitcase and yet he's got no notes, no reports, no laptop/computer with all his findings on .. so what's he got in there then? :facepalm:

coat , hat and sunglasses for fleeing away Roux :drumroll:

 

[Interested Bystander]

She walks the same as my cousin who had polio as a child, one leg is shorter than the other because of it. Same age era, it was very common back then

She certainly has rheumatoid arthritis. One has only to look at her hands to see that. RA is a systemic autoimmune disease BUT it is quite possible that she has suffered something like polio too. As you say it used to be much more common. I feel for her. If she has severe RA, sitting in court all day will be ghastly for her as it is important to keep on the move. One gets very, very, stiff when sitting for hours.

 

[Gryffindor]

Do you not mean the other way round? You may be right, of course, when Nel was a young lawyer. It just sounded a little odd.

Oh now I'm not sure . . . . ? :-\

 

[DebinGA]

Did Nel ask Wollie if the bangshots sound test event included a sound test of OP screaming? If not, I hope Nel will ask on Monday. No way, I see Roux resting on Tues. as he assured m'lady he would.

 

[sleuth-d-]

Did anyone just notice the size of Woolies briefcase? I was more like a suitcase and yet he's got no notes, no reports, no laptop/computer with all his findings on .. so what's he got in there then? :facepalm:

guns? bullets?

 

[Gryffindor]

She certainly has rheumatoid arthritish. One has only to look at her hands to see that. RA can be systemic BUT it is quite possible that she has suffered something like polio too. Are you say it used to be much more common.

I'd go with RA. Spotted her fingers and hands right away when holding her glass of water. I've had it since 8 :-( Deformity and displacement of her finger joints.

 

[crasshopper]

Just once I'd like to see someone refuse one of OP's drawrings he hands to his team.

methinks those head straight to the bin at this point...

 

[Viper]

Do you not mean the other way round? You may be right, of course, when Nel was a young lawyer. It just sounded a little odd.

Nel is also a former high ranking police officer, he headed some sort of special unit.

 

[Interested Bystander]

So Woolie's position . . . . . ?

1st shot hip
2nd shot arm?
3rd shot ?
4th shot head

Can anyone help? Is any of that correct?

Thank you. I'm off to take Woolie for SEVERAL beers ;-)

I think Mangena cannot be sure in which order the 3rd and 4th shots were. That sounds a little odd but what I think he meant was that either the 3rd or 4th shot was to the head. One of them didn't hit her and he has no way of knowing which.

Enjoy the beer!

 

[Interested Bystander]

Nel is also a former high ranking police officer, he headed some sort of special unit.

Thank you V much for that. I thought it seemed a little odd.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Awww I've become quite fond of Wollie, bless him. I think he deserves a nice sit down and a few beers now.

Definitely. With English not being his first language it must have been very hard for him.

 

[Gryffindor]

I think Mangena cannot be sure in which order the 3rd and 4th shots were. That sounds a little odd but what I think he mean was that either the 3rd or 4th shot was to the head. One of them didn't hit her and he has no way of knowing which.

Enjoy the beer!

Hee hee. I think Woolie will enjoy it much more ;-)

Yeah, Mangena reckoned shot A - hip , shot B - missed and ricocheted, shots C and D interchangeable for arm and left hand graze through head.

And Woolie reckons shot A - hip, shot B - arm and C- left hand finger and ricochet and D - head??

 

[04009margaret]

She certainly has rheumatoid arthritis. One has only to look at her hands to see that. RA is a systemic autoimmune disease BUT it is quite possible that she has suffered something like polio too. As you say it used to be much more common. I feel for her. If she has severe RA, sitting in court all day will be ghastly for her as it is important to keep on the move. One gets very, very, stiff when sitting for hours.

Yes, post 2nd world war until mid 1950's. Judge Masipa was born 1947, same year as my cousin who suffered from polio at the age of 2, there was a polio outbreak during this period. She had to learn to walk again & her left leg is 2 inches shorter & skinnier than her right leg due to polio. They both have the exact same movement & walk.

 

[G.bng]

Nel said because paper would have let fragments pass thru, more like flesh, I think. Board showed a misleading dispersement pattern?

Maybe I missed something, but was Wolmarans trying to show dispersement "pattern" or simply that the splinters in the arm could only be there if the arm was within 6-60 cm (I think this was his figures) of the door and not right over against the wall where Mangena's theory puts Reeva at the time of the arm shot.

Because if W wasn't trying to show pattern merely the existence of splinters only up to a certain distance then I don't see what point Nel was trying to make about whether it was done on feather board or paper because surely so long as W has shown that there could only be splinters on the arm wound it it were within a certain distance of the door then IMO he has done his job, i.e. to raise a very reasonable doubt that Mangena's theory is correct and therefore a reasonable possibility that the gap between first and second shots may also not be correct, or at least not a gap as long as the State's case requires for the screams and mangena's theory of the sequence of events.

 

[Viper]

Curious habit Nel has. He is always going to "deal with that", "get back to that", "cover that"... but very often the matters have been out paced by others during and nothing more is said of them.

I have noticed him say that. But it is my recollection that when he does it is to get the witness back in line with his original question because the witnesses were straying on to another point that Nel did not want them to go to at that time. Nel is not saying it to change his line of questioning, he is saying it to get the straying witnesses to shut up and focus on what he is asking them.

 

[DebinGA]

Isn't it safe to assume at this stage in the trial that, despite all Roux's emphasis on the sounds neighbors actually heard and whether OP screams like a woman, we won't see an actual sound expert present any verifiable findings of any sound tests the DT conducted?

 

[Viper]

Maybe I missed something, but was Wolmarans trying to show dispersement "pattern" or simply that the splinters in the arm could only be there if the arm was within 6-60 cm (I think this was his figures) of the door and not right over against the wall where Mangena's theory puts Reeva at the time of the arm shot.

Because if W wasn't trying to show pattern merely the existence of splinters only up to a certain distance then I don't see what point Nel was trying to make about whether it was done on feather board or paper because surely so long as W has shown that there could only be splinters on the arm wound it it were within a certain distance of the door then IMO he has done his job, i.e. to raise a very reasonable doubt that Mangena's theory is correct and therefore a reasonable possibility that the gap between first and second shots may also not be correct, or at least not a gap as long as the State's case requires for the screams and mangena's theory of the sequence of events.

What Nel is showing is that there was a large area of splinter dispersement actually in the skin of Reeva's forearm, not just a couple of splinters as seen on the witness boards. This would occur as the first bullet exited the door and entered her hip.

What W wants to claim is the splintering to her forearm occurred further away from the door when the bullet exited the door and entered Reeva's arm, and so there are only a couple of splinters as seen on his boards.

BTW Regarding out brief conversation last night. I'm certain that you noticed the questions from Nel today about where the spent casings were found inside the bathroom, and his questions about OP having to move in to the bathroom and to the right of where the laser set up was located to fire the last three bullets!

 

[G.bng]

I have noticed him say that. But it is my recollection that when he does it is to get the witness back in line with his original question because the witnesses were straying on to another point that Nel did not want them to go to at that time. Nel is not saying it to change his line of questioning, he is saying it to get the straying witnesses to shut up and focus on what he is asking them.

Yes he does that too but not always. I have seen Nel change where he was going suddenly and then half way through suddenly decide he wants to leave that, maybe because he's not up to speed to go there at that point, and then say he "we'll deal with that" and never bring it up again. I am just not sure if part of his technique or he is simply absent minded.

 

[DebinGA]

IIRC Mangena said the head shot was last, and Reeva was facing down when hit. I don't see how Wollie's reenactment of her final movements correlates with that, especially re the magazine rack. He echoed Dixon's view that the rack wasn't knocked out of place, but then he seemed to say toward the end of the day that Reeva fell to the floor and died. ???

 

[Viper]

Yes he does that too but not always. I have seen Nel change where he was going suddenly and then half way through suddenly decide he wants to leave that, maybe because he's not up to speed to go there at that point, and then say he "we'll deal with that" and never bring it up again. I am just not sure if part of his technique or he is simply absent minded.

Well, we may be watching different trials. I have already replied about Nel's use of "Yes, yes, I know, we'll get back to that."

But regarding whether or not Mr. Nel is absent minded... Clearly he is not! He has somehow managed to destroy every DT witness with his mental capabilities, so surely they must be very sharp indeed! LOL!!!