Trial Discussion Thread #36 - 14.05.09 Day 29

[supernovaNic]

An interesting article to read whilst we wait for next week's proceedings to continue...this highlights OP's inconsistencies with Reeva breathing:

http://www.biznews.com/oscar-pistor...s-killer-lies-will-little-detail-nail-murder/

Thanks ! Interesting read.

 

[Nausicaa]

Wasn't the toilet full of dark blood?

Some of us had the distinct impression that it had been flushed between the murder and the photos.

And if it hadn't been we'd have been expecting evidence as to whether it contained any significant quantity of Reeva's urine, which would not have been very hard to establish and would have been highly useful to the Defence if there had been.

Such a pity that someone was unable to resist that middle-class instinct to flush away the evidence.

 

[crasshopper]

I think Wollie intimated most of his reports were oral. That seemed a little odd though I don't think it was done to intentionally not provide evidence that may not work for the Defence. He just doesn't seem the type to lie. However he surely has to have copious notes. One good thing about this TV trial is that it will show up any warts in the system which can then be excised. I don't doubt, if we had TV trials in the UK, it would do the same here!

Your kind and probably honest I am not casting doubt on Woolie's integrity but as you acnowledge it was odd for a man of his experience. He is more often a defense expert and by now very well aware of the best tactics, Roux probably didn't even have to spell it out. (my speculation)

The most benevolent of faces can hide the shrewdest of minds...


Goodnight everyone. What an exciting morning with M. Barnacle!

 

[Trooper]

I haven't worked with him, but it is possible that he might have cross-examined me at some point in the past, or it is just something about him that irritates me...

I definitely don't think you are alone...

:welcome:to Barnacle.. a great addition to the already stellar cast from South Africa, Jassywriter, Leisbeth, Carol70, and Capetown Criminologist.. may I ask if you are actually in Pretoria? Count me in as a fellow fan of Nel, since Clive Derby-Lewis days.. I had always hoped that Nel would be able to get his sticky fingers on the bloke who murdered Ruth Furst, ( Joe Slovo's wife) in Mozambique with a letter bomb but the b**tard got a pardon , or immunity for information, I forget which.. ....

Roux , I agree ,is pushing uphill with a pointed stick, but doing it well. He has much to endure, a lousy client with a lousy story that just will not lay down and expert witnesses that are not up to it, I exclude Wolli from this.. . he did his best.. the Social Worker was a disaster. It could only have been desperation , and it was a bit sickening to hear and see , actually..

I've been looking on line at the prisons around Pretoria.. .on behalf of Oscar, naturally.... any guesses as to which one our boy will be residing in ?

 

[Jake18]

I'm just trying to catch up - was intermittently following last night but fell asleep. Anyway, can someone clever please explain why there is so much debate about the order of the shots, especially given there seems to be consensus the head shot was last. Is the DT hoping to give Reeva less time to scream? Or do shots in rapid succession make it seem less likely that she was specifically targeted by OP

It's obviously important to Nel...

Transient Ischaemic Attack

(Seriously, it's like everyone was on something fun last night!)

 

[JudgeJudi]

Yours was fab...I never got that from you when I joined.....but that's ok....

Peace offering :cupcake: :welcome5:

It's great to have you here.

 

[supernovaNic]

sbm

I've been looking on line at the prisons around Pretoria.. .on behalf of Oscar, naturally.... any guesses as to which one our boy will be residing in ?

Well it would need staff quarters for his personal psychologist because Oscar is special and needs one with him at all times.

 

[Trooper]

I'm just trying to catch up - was intermittently following last night but fell asleep. Anyway, can someone clever please explain why there is so much debate about the order of the shots, especially given there seems to be consensus the head shot was last. Is the DT hoping to give Reeva less time to scream? Or do shots in rapid succession make it seem less likely that she was specifically targeted by the shots?

It's obviously important to Nel...

Someone clever will no doubt trump me , Jake.. but from the first get up and go, it was Roux 's contention that the head shot was first.. therefore, all the screaming was Oscar ... as the trial has progressed this area has become more and more firm , some, count me as one of 'em , would say it was concrete that the head shot was last.. that she had been screaming for some time before any shot was fired, and certainly while the shots were fired. ( dr Stipps Testimony ) ..

So its not as if Roux has come to the consensus as yet, at least , in leading or x-exam.. he has sort of let it take its own track and gone with the flow for a few weeks now.. Oscar and Roux dropped the double tap theory very smartly after Mangeena's evidence, so that hasn't raised its head again..

Nel ,I presume is simply nailing it down every opportunity that arises.. head shot last, bang, pause, ( screaming ) bang bang bang, and it seems that has , as truth quite often does, proceeded under its own momentum.

 

[Jake18]

Someone clever will no doubt trump me , Jake.. but from the first get up and go, it was Roux 's contention that the head shot was first.. therefore, all the screaming was Oscar ... as the trial has progressed this area has become more and more firm , some, count me as one of 'em , would say it was concrete that the head shot was last.. that she had been screaming for some time before any shot was fired, and certainly while the shots were fired. ( dr Stipps Testimony ) ..

So its not as if Roux has come to the consensus as yet, at least , in leading or x-exam.. he has sort of let it take its own track and gone with the flow for a few weeks now.. Oscar and Roux dropped the double tap theory very smartly after Mangeena's evidence, so that hasn't raised its head again..

Nel ,I presume is simply nailing it down every opportunity that arises.. head shot last, bang, pause, ( screaming ) bang bang bang, and it seems that has , as truth quite often does, proceeded under its own momentum.

Thanks. That helps! I thought I was befuddled last night cos I was tired but on a re read I still wasn't sure what the DT's focus was.

 

[Trooper]

Thanks. That helps! I thought I was befuddled last night cos I was tired but on a re read I still wasn't sure what the DT's focus was.

Roux 's main thrust , from the beginning of the trial is to eradicate, erase and eliminate any and all references to a Screaming Woman. .. hence the insistence that any sound heard by anyone was Oscar himself using his unique vocal cords and screaming (a) like a man who screams like a woman, and (b) like an actual woman , and at one time, (c) like both a man and a woman screaming intermingled at the one and the same time. The head shot being first was part of this scenario. A very important part.

Because.. if a woman screamed.. there goes Oscars story .. his story becomes a perjury , a fantasy and a big fat lie because he is a murdering , instead of his claim that he is merely a clumsy agitated gun user. ..

 

[BarnacleZA]

Now one more question

Do you care to share whether you think OP is guilty and which conviction the evidence supports or what you feel is the greatest weakness of the state's case.

Myself, I'm convinced they argued, never went to bed and it unfolded from there, jmo.

No worries if you can't answer!

Wow! I'm being kept busy while also trying to watch some superrugby...

As I am obviously not involved with the trial I am quite free to answer.

I personally believe there is something more to this. Including a fight. There were four shots fired at a specific area in the door. Not just blindly shooting in the general direction of the door... Just think where a person would be just after you flee and lock the door... But that is merely speculation in legal terms, but that is how I see it.

 

[Budgie]

:welcome:to Barnacle.. a great addition to the already stellar cast from South Africa, Jassywriter, Leisbeth, Carol70, and Capetown Criminologist.. may I ask if you are actually in Pretoria? Count me in as a fellow fan of Nel, since Clive Derby-Lewis days.. I had always hoped that Nel would be able to get his sticky fingers on the bloke who murdered Ruth Furst, ( Joe Slovo's wife) in Mozambique with a letter bomb but the b**tard got a pardon , or immunity for information, I forget which.. ....

Roux , I agree ,is pushing uphill with a pointed stick, but doing it well. He has much to endure, a lousy client with a lousy story that just will not lay down and expert witnesses that are not up to it, I exclude Wolli from this.. . he did his best.. the Social Worker was a disaster. It could only have been desperation , and it was a bit sickening to hear and see , actually..

I've been looking on line at the prisons around Pretoria.. .on behalf of Oscar, naturally.... any guesses as to which one our boy will be residing in ?

Trooper, I think Barnacle maybe recovering from the welcoming committee party we just had for him. Let's let breathing take place before we carry on with any further questions for our new insider. A few moments at the very least.

As for the prisons...I watched a Ross Kemp doco on SA gangs and their gangs in prisons a few years ago. My Lord. Not a place you'd want to be a permanent resident of no matter which city/town you resided in before incarceration. You maybe able to find them on YT.
I've also seen on other chat sites that it's either the 26's or 28's that have something brewing for OP once he takes up his new right of abode.

 

[Jake18]

Roux 's main thrust , from the beginning of the trial is to eradicate, erase and eliminate any and all references to a Screaming Woman. .. hence the insistence that any sound heard by anyone was Oscar himself using his unique vocal cords and screaming (a) like a man who screams like a woman, and (b) like an actual woman , and at one time, (c) like both a man and a woman screaming intermingled at the one and the same time. The head shot being first was part of this scenario. A very important part.

Because.. if a woman screamed.. there goes Oscars story .. his story becomes a perjury , a fantasy and a big fat lie because he is a murdering , instead of his claim that he is merely a clumsy agitated gun user. ..

I thought Roux had changed his approach when "Screaming Oscar" - up and down corridors, in the dark etc, emerged after too many people had heard Reeva scream. But you're right, unlike the double tap thing the head shot first theory hasn't been officially withdrawn.

 

[Budgie]

Wow! I'm being kept busy while also trying to watch some superrugby...

As I am obviously not involved with the trial I am quite free to answer.

I personally believe there is something more to this. Including a fight. There were four shots fired at a specific area in the door. Not just blindly shooting in the general direction of the door... Just think where a person would be just after you flee and lock the door... But that is merely speculation in legal terms, but that is how I see it.

Who are you watching?

The Highlanders are playing the Lions right now in Dunedin.

And thank you for allowing us to barrage you with a million and one questions.

 

[Jake18]

Wow! I'm being kept busy while also trying to watch some superrugby...

As I am obviously not involved with the trial I am quite free to answer.

I personally believe there is something more to this. Including a fight. There were four shots fired at a specific area in the door. Not just blindly shooting in the general direction of the door... Just think where a person would be just after you flee and lock the door... But that is merely speculation in legal terms, but that is how I see it.

Super rugby is on here too. Not supporting the Lions though!

 

[Trooper]

Trooper, I think Barnacle maybe recovering from the welcoming committee party we just had for him. Let's let breathing take place before we carry on with any further questions for our new insider. A few moments at the very least.

As for the prisons...I watched a Ross Kemp doco on SA gangs and their gangs in prisons a few years ago. My Lord. Not a place you'd want to be a permanent resident of no matter which city/town you resided in before incarceration. You maybe able to find them on YT.
I've also seen on other chat sites that it's either the 26's or 28's that have something brewing for OP once he takes up his new right of abode.

Ha. anyone who follows the SA Lions in Super rugby can cope with my posts, and will be quite at home being belted around a bit. His team is playing NZ and that's called " getting a hiding " in any language.

I am looking for an uncomfortable prison for Oscar..

 

[BarnacleZA]

I'm just trying to catch up - was intermittently following last night but fell asleep. Anyway, can someone clever please explain why there is so much debate about the order of the shots, especially given there seems to be consensus the head shot was last. Is the DT hoping to give Reeva less time to scream? Or do shots in rapid succession make it seem less likely that she was specifically targeted by OP

It's obviously important to Nel...

Transient Ischaemic Attack

(Seriously, it's like everyone was on something fun last night!)

The time line is important in terms of the screams yes, but more specifically, the defence wants it to be in a single rapid burst to show it was more of a panic...

With Mangena we had Bang...BangBangBang, with Wollie and defence BangBangBangBang. Neither of these explain the differences in position of the deceased...
Now to give you my personal description based on what was heard in testimony so far.

1. First shot hits A on door and hits Reeva's hip (height matches) cannot wish it away. Fixed.
2. Reeva does not collapse as suggested (remember she can have most of her weight on the left leg) and moves to the left, far enough for the second bullet, through B to miss her and strike E. The bullet passes however close enough to her forearm for wood splinters to cause the marks there. As she is still close to the door, between the toilet itself and the door. The bullet ricochets of E, strikes F then hits her back with much less energy to only cause a bruise and falls into the toilet.
3. She then starts to fall backwards, as she tries to place some weight onto the right leg, but it buckles and number three hits her arm.
4. Still going down number four is the head shot.

Therefore... Bang...(slight delay and screaming)... Bang... (More screaming as she goes down)... BangBang (rather quick succession while falling to strike the arm and the head). C and D is also quite close together on the door, similar to a double-tap...

 

[Budgie]

Super rugby is on here too. Not supporting the Lions though!

I'd put money on the Highlanders to win but it's close.

We are going to get told off if we go off topic here.

 

[james83]

As far as I'm aware neither of these guys are on trial, they can do whatever they please together as long as it's legal. It's an issue as to whether it's the done thing, but that's all.

Captain Mangena and Wollie are both ballistics experts. They may disagree on trajectories, shot sequence and bullet impact, however unless Wollie has magically moved the bullet-holes in the door I haven't a clue what evidence he can possibly have tailored.

Very naive to think nothing of the fact that Wolmarans final report was submitted 7 weeks into the trial, do you seriously think thats normal?.

 

[BarnacleZA]

Ha. anyone who follows the SA Lions in Super rugby can cope with my posts, and will be quite at home being belted around a bit. His team is playing NZ and that's called " getting a hiding " in any language.

I am looking for an uncomfortable prison for Oscar..

Luckily not a Lions supporter. More of a rugby in general supporter (fanatic). I watch every game I can!