Trial Discussion Thread #36 - 14.05.09 Day 29

[Budgie]

Ha. anyone who follows the SA Lions in Super rugby can cope with my posts, and will be quite at home being belted around a bit. His team is playing NZ and that's called " getting a hiding " in any language.

I am looking for an uncomfortable prison for Oscar..

Apparently C-Max is quiet comfortable at this time of year.

P.S....you need to check out my location re super rugby.

 

[Trooper]

Apparently C-Max is quiet comfortable at this time of year.

P.S....you need to check out my location re super rugby.

:facepalm: I was in the middle of a post , bemoaning the fact the I might one day live to see the day Nz loses to AU.. and then, of course, I notice your latitude and longitude. . Wellington??

 

[Budgie]

:welcome:to Barnacle.. a great addition to the already stellar cast from South Africa, Jassywriter, Leisbeth, Carol70, and Capetown Criminologist.. may I ask if you are actually in Pretoria? Count me in as a fellow fan of Nel, since Clive Derby-Lewis days.. I had always hoped that Nel would be able to get his sticky fingers on the bloke who murdered Ruth Furst, ( Joe Slovo's wife) in Mozambique with a letter bomb but the b**tard got a pardon , or immunity for information, I forget which.. ....

Roux , I agree ,is pushing uphill with a pointed stick, but doing it well. He has much to endure, a lousy client with a lousy story that just will not lay down and expert witnesses that are not up to it, I exclude Wolli from this.. . he did his best.. the Social Worker was a disaster. It could only have been desperation , and it was a bit sickening to hear and see , actually..

I've been looking on line at the prisons around Pretoria.. .on behalf of Oscar, naturally.... any guesses as to which one our boy will be residing in ?

The time line is important in terms of the screams yes, but more specifically, the defence wants it to be in a single rapid burst to show it was more of a panic...

With Mangena we had Bang...BangBangBang, with Wollie and defence BangBangBangBang. Neither of these explain the differences in position of the deceased...
Now to give you my personal description based on what was heard in testimony so far.

1. First shot hits A on door and hits Reeva's hip (height matches) cannot wish it away. Fixed.
2. Reeva does not collapse as suggested (remember she can have most of her weight on the left leg) and moves to the left, far enough for the second bullet, through B to miss her and strike E. The bullet passes however close enough to her forearm for wood splinters to cause the marks there. As she is still close to the door, between the toilet itself and the door. The bullet ricochets of E, strikes F then hits her back with much less energy to only cause a bruise and falls into the toilet.
3. She then starts to fall backwards, as she tries to place some weight onto the right leg, but it buckles and number three hits her arm.
4. Still going down number four is the head shot.

Therefore... Bang...(slight delay and screaming)... Bang... (More screaming as she goes down)... BangBang (rather quick succession while falling to strike the arm and the head). C and D is also quite close together on the door, similar to a double-tap...

How come you haven't been called to the stand? You should be!

 

[Trooper]

oh Oscar aimed that gun.. this was no random firing.. he had an almost 100% strike rate. each shot was fatal, except the ricochet one and that was a fluke. his aim was quite good. .. it was one of those stunning moments in the trial , Oscar on the stand, when Nel drops his little gem that the gunshots were well aimed, well grouped, and Oscar, still full of it , says, I kid you not. ... 'oh. it wasn't that good of a grouping'..

he was serious, too.

 

[Budgie]

:facepalm: I was in the middle of a post , bemoaning the fact the I might one day live to see the day Nz loses to AU.. and then, of course, I notice your latitude and longitude. . Wellington??

Lets just say my hairdo is never the same each day where I live....

Which prison have you selected?

 

[Trooper]

Lets just say my hairdo is never the same each day where I live....

Which prison have you selected?

Kgosi Mampuru Prison... this one appeals .. heh ...


http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/inmate-who-stabbed-hani-s-killers-warns-oscar-1.1656398

 

[Jake18]

The time line is important in terms of the screams yes, but more specifically, the defence wants it to be in a single rapid burst to show it was more of a panic...

With Mangena we had Bang...BangBangBang, with Wollie and defence BangBangBangBang. Neither of these explain the differences in position of the deceased...
Now to give you my personal description based on what was heard in testimony so far.

1. First shot hits A on door and hits Reeva's hip (height matches) cannot wish it away. Fixed.
2. Reeva does not collapse as suggested (remember she can have most of her weight on the left leg) and moves to the left, far enough for the second bullet, through B to miss her and strike E. The bullet passes however close enough to her forearm for wood splinters to cause the marks there. As she is still close to the door, between the toilet itself and the door. The bullet ricochets of E, strikes F then hits her back with much less energy to only cause a bruise and falls into the toilet.
3. She then starts to fall backwards, as she tries to place some weight onto the right leg, but it buckles and number three hits her arm.
4. Still going down number four is the head shot.

Therefore... Bang...(slight delay and screaming)... Bang... (More screaming as she goes down)... BangBang (rather quick succession while falling to strike the arm and the head). C and D is also quite close together on the door, similar to a double-tap...

I can visualise that clearly. Poor Reeva.

 

[Budgie]

Kgosi Mampuru Prison... this one appeals .. heh ...


http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/inmate-who-stabbed-hani-s-killers-warns-oscar-1.1656398

OMG!

Yep, that one will do Oscar just nicely, should he be found guilty of course...:jail:

 

[JudgeJudi]

This link was posted up-thread. It's written by a "former Oxford philosopher, who" like us "has paid attention to every word and nuance in the televised courtroom. She believes she has identified a killer lie that proves the athlete’s guilt".

http://www.biznews.com/oscar-pistor...s-killer-lies-will-little-detail-nail-murder/

 

[Budgie]

Does OP stay out on bail until all charges have been argued in court? Considering he was on bail for murder(which is odd)...I'm just wondering.
Also, if found guilty of all four (Moider + 3x firearm related charges)are the sentences for each served concurrently?

 

[44ALLAN]

I haven't seen much of today and nothing for about the first 2 hours so will review over the weekend as well as trying to catch up with the day's posts. However, in respect of what you say about Nel showing "there was a large area of splinter dispersement in the skin of Reeva's forearm" and Wolmarans' board only showing "a couple", I still don't see what was the actual point Nel was trying to make because, as I understand it, the mere fact there were splinters on at the site of the arm shot is what the Defence's challenge to the State's sequence of events covering the actual shooting is all about.

To explain. The fact there were splinters associated with the arm wound but none associated with the head wound when according to the State's proposed sequence of events both were hit at roughly the same distance from the door, imo raises serious doubts about the accuracy of the State's sequence placing Reeva down and over by the wall for both the head and arm shots, as common sense dictates, to me at least, that if shot at equal distance to the door both head and arm should have door splinters associated not just one.

OTOH, maybe I am interpreting you incorrectly, why would Wolmarans want to claim, as you say, that "splintering to her [Reeva's] forearm occurred further away", when it is precisely the defence's sequence that Reeva was much nearer the door when hit in the arm than the State maintains; a theory they support precisely by the presence of splinters in the arm wound in contrast to there being none in the head wound. A theory that imo does effectively deal with the contradiction that left the state's sequence wide open and up for challenge when Mangena failed to explain why the arm wound would have splinters associated while the head would did not if both were at a similar distance when hit. A contradiction that an intelligent and logical thinker like Masipa presumably is would find difficult to tally so compromising her reliance on the State's version in respect of the sequence of events for the shots at least.

And is such an apparently small detail important? Well, IMO absolutely yes, because as noted previously, the State's version goes towards proving the Bang...bang,bang,bang which in its turn goes towards showing intent, premeditation, knowledge of target, etc. while at the same time leaving time for the possibility of screams, all important for the State's case to succeed in it's maximum charge at least, while the defence's theory goes towards proving either a non existent or a much lesser gap between first and second shot, which in its turn goes towards showing spur of the moment, fear, panic, etc., along with a reasonable possibility there were no screams due to the speed at which the shots were fired. JMHO SNNFS,I,OR

Excellent post ty.

It must also be stressed the prosecution has 5 witnesses to a woman screaming which added to the bang........bang bang bang they heard is the winning hand at the moment.
The defence has bang bang bang bang and absolutely nothing else IMO.
They cannot and have not got rid of Reeva screaming.

 

[Emz73]

Frank Chiziweni

So I'm looking at homes in the Silverwood Estates in Pretoria and here are some of the descriptions I found for staff quarters:

Outbuilding 1 Can easily be converted to a Flatlet with own entrance or become part of Study area for office setup Staff Quarters/Domestic Rooms

Outbuilding 1 Flatlet, Staff Quarters/Domestic Rooms, Domestic Bathroom

Just so curious if Frank's living area was completely separated from the house, or if shares a wall within Oscar's home, or is off the kitchen, etc.

None of the pictures I saw showed the staff quarters so I can't figure out where they are located on the listings either.

Has anyone discovered more on Frank?

I read in a daily mail article that he lives off the kitchen.

 

[JudgeJudi]

1st bolded part- Thank you for clarifying proper SA procedure. There was some debate.

2nd bolded part- ROFL

Now one more question

Do you care to share whether you think OP is guilty and which conviction the evidence supports or what you feel is the greatest weakness of the state's case.

Myself, I'm convinced they argued, never went to bed and it unfolded from there, jmo.

No worries if you can't answer!

That's my theory too. I've typed part of it up but keeping it concise is difficult, and I'm soooo tired but I just can't leave it alone. If I'm not watching it live, I'm reading about it here, plus looking at all the vds, articles and TV interviews . I've been going to bed hours after my husband. Every morning he asks what time I went to bed ... um, I tell him 2 hours earlier than I did.

I'm totally obsessed and just can't get it out of my mind. When I was walking (read creeping) down the hallway the other night so as not to wake our little dog who sleeps on our bed, it was pitch black and I had to keep a hand on the wall to find the bedroom door. Sound familiar? There was a tiny crack of light as he'd left the door barely ajar. Naturally OP's hallway to the bathroom sprang to mind. On another occasion he'd closed the bedroom door and it was again pitch dark. The only way I could find my way into bed was to feel the end of the bed. We have blackout curtains and they were closed but there was the teensiest bit of light coming in through the en suite window but it was on his side of the bed. OMG here we go again. And so it goes on.

 

[lithgow1]

Another new video (not the judge unfortunately). Have just started watching so don't know what it's like.

Oscar Pistorius 'Is Not Putting On A Show' | Exclusive Footage - YouTube

 

[patCee]

O/T I know, but.....Prisons provide society and victims with justice, protection and also punishment for the perpetrators. Some of us will focus on one aspect rather than others, some with feelings of revenge.

Whilst I believe that OP is guilty of murder, and is likely to go to prison, I have no wish to see him or any other prisoner suffer inhumane treatment, other than a loss of liberty. The idea of institutions, in my country or any other, where people incarcerated are being physically or mentally ill treated and denied basic human rights fills me with horror.

•

being held in incommunicado detention;
• being exposed to physical, psychological and verbal abuse from prison officers or
other fellow detainees;
• being denied adequate medical (including mental health) care and dental care;
• being exposed to unsanitary food, water or living conditions, including unsanitary
food or water;
• being exposed to extended periods of isolation or overcrowding;
• being provided with inadequate or insufficient food;
• being denied adequate bedding, food or exercise;
• being detained without natural light
• being denied educational opportunities; and
• being denied access to information and documents.

http://hrlc.org.au/files/F3UMOAES6A/Right to Humane Treatment - Paper by Midgley and Riebl.pdf

 

[Viper]

There are plenty of ways in the US to avoid disclosing multiple drafts of an expert report. Happens all the time. jmo

Yes, even in a deposition. IIRC is is protected as Attorney Client Work Product.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Barnacle has no idea what we have in store!!! (or perhaps he does)

But we have to remember there could be Pistorians viewing here too.

 

[sleuth-d-]

Wow, another poster who mistakes absent mindedness with a lesser intelligence when in fact it is only too often associated with genius or very intelligent minds, i.e. quick, good, creative and clever thinkers, e.g. Einstein, Galileo Galilei, Thomas Aquinas, Beethoven, Leonardo da Vinci, etc., all of them geniuses in their field but also notoriously absent minded. So if you have any absent minded and/or easily distracted kids watch out and nurture because it may be you have a genius in your midst as explained in the article
"Wandering Minds and Absent Minded Children Have Sharper Brains".

i didn't mistake absent mindedness with lesser intelligence. i simply stated that imo nel is not absent minded.

 

[lithgow1]

But we have to remember there could be Pistorians viewing here too.

The Pistorians. He he. Reminds me a bit of the Ellen Jamesians in The World According to Garp though they at least rallied behind a genuine victim.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Wow! I'm being kept busy while also trying to watch some superrugby...

As I am obviously not involved with the trial I am quite free to answer.

I personally believe there is something more to this. Including a fight. There were four shots fired at a specific area in the door. Not just blindly shooting in the general direction of the door... Just think where a person would be just after you flee and lock the door... But that is merely speculation in legal terms, but that is how I see it.

Greetings. We're so glad you're here. You're generating a huge amount of interest here and it will only get worse. I truly don't want intrude on your superrugby so an answer at any convenient time would really be appreciated.

We know premeditated murder carries a mandatory 25 year sentence. However, if he was convicted of either murder or culpable homicide and any or all of the 3 firearms charges, is it likely that the firearms sentences would be served concurrently?

If, say, Judge Masipa felt there wasn't quite enough for premeditated murder (but felt it was very close to that) and convicted him on one of the lesser charges, would you think she would make the firearms sentences run consecutively thus putting him away for a period that could equal the 25 years for premeditated murder?