Trial Discussion Thread #36 - 14.05.09 Day 29

[BritsKate]

Could someone put me right on this please .. when Wollie kept trying to demonstrate Reeva's movements when she was shot, he kept grabbing the outside of his arm when he was talking about the arm shot as if to indicate that that was where she was shot but my understanding is that she was shot in the area underneath the arm (i.e. as she held her hands up to her head). Where exactly was the shot to her arm, please?

"The bullet wound above Steenkamp's right elbow shattered her upper arm and she would not have been able to use it if she had survived."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/10/oscar-pistorius-vomits-reeva-steenkamp-shooting


Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[Zuri]

haha...please don't concern yourself with my loved ones. I guaranty I will get my kid to the ER faster than the ambulance would arrive. Probably by a good ten minutes. Depends on where one lives, I suppose, but I'm not wasting 15 minutes calling 911 and waiting for the EMT's if I have a choice and can manage to drive myself.

Common sense would tell you that if the waiting time for an ambulance is longer than it would take you to get to the ER yourself, don't waste the time. Seems pretty simple to me

I think I understand what you are saying. If your child is not breathing, then certainly you are doing CPR and calling 911. If your child sustains a concussion or a deep laceration, then taking them yourself would certainly be quicker. I trust your judgment as a Mom!

I do believe OP panicked when he realized what he had done and the shock and ramifications of his actions resulting in Reeva's death along with adrenaline made his statements look odd. I don't know what the 911 system is like in SA, but what may seem odd to us about having someone drive RS to the hospital speaks to me of a disconnect and disbelief of what had just happened. JMV

 

[whiterum]

I had a dream about the trial last night. lol. In my dream Nel was explaining the pros version saying that there was an argument before the shots and explained a very probable reason for the argument with putting kind of evidence in detail. I remember being shocked and saying Yessss.. He killed her because of that!!
I'm struggling for a few hours :tantrum:but unfortunately can't remember what that motive /subject was ?? maybe I should give a break reading here lol :floorlaugh:

Was he in your dream harbouring jealousy that she would be appearing on National TV that week-end, In bikini etc , with all her beautiful attributes on full display to the nation etc. After all he is the famous one, god forbid if she were ever to steal his thunder in the celebrity department.

Also as discussed last year MS, he obviously did not know that she was intending to go out that evening with her friends and on being informed of this by his friend that afternoon, he phoned her and put a damper on that idea.

Strange though he made a point in his affidavit that she phoned him, I wonder why he included this, as what bearing did that have on the events of that night.

 

[Viper]

I think I understand what you are saying. If your child is not breathing, then certainly you are doing CPR and calling 911. If your child sustains a concussion or a deep laceration, then taking them yourself would certainly be quicker. I trust your judgment as a Mom!

I do believe OP panicked when he realized what he had done and the shock and ramifications of his actions resulting in Reeva's death along with adrenaline made his statements look odd. I don't know what the 911 system is like in SA, but what may seem odd to us about having someone drive RS to the hospital speaks to me of a disconnect and disbelief of what had just happened. JMV

Oh no! A thought just crossed my mind. If there is a recording of OP screaming or crying on the phone with a Netcare operator, telling him/her that he had accidentally shot Reeva and pleading for help, that would be the perfect thing to play at the very end of the DTs case presentation. :what:

 

[wb180]

just to break this down even further.

op phoned stander for 'help'. yet, the phone call where netcare apparently told him to drive her to hospital came after this.

so the purpose of stander coming round could not have been to help drive her to hospital.

Yes agreed, that's why OP version is so improbable and we have people arguing for OP that they won't ask for ambulance even when someone is shot in the head. I mean really...

 

[wb180]

C'mon moomin, join in. The more the merrier. Don't be shy, nice people are always welcome here.

Yea join in, its fun. Although if you are planning to give some non websleuth like arguments, be prepared to be responded by lots of logical responses!

 

[wb180]

BBM Yep.
Bullet B didn't miss by much. Reeva was in motion. It looks pretty deliberate to me and a pretty good shot for a guy who couldn't see or hear his "target". JMO

Link to the photo I used:

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/pistorius-trial/pistorius-trial-evidence-revealed-n61796

View attachment 43461

Yep really fits in what OP says right when he said he didn't aim and the gun went off in quick succession....not.

I mean it is pretty obvious he was aiming and intending to shoot to neutralize the 'threat'.

 

[BritsKate]

I think its really important to also remember Oscar was living in an upper class area of Pretoria. This wasn't some impoverished area that lacks access to even basic resources we sometimes see in much poorer communities. The nearest hospital was just 6km (3.78 miles) away. It isn't unreasonable to assume an ambulance arrival would have been fairly quick if netcare was apprised of the trauma involving a living patient.

From Silver Woods Estate own website:

Silver Woods is located within minutes of excellent health care facilities and hospitals.

http://www.silverwoods.co.za/

 

[sleuth-d-]

Oh no! A thought just crossed my mind. If there is a recording of OP screaming or crying on the phone with a Netcare operator, telling him/her that he had accidentally shot Reeva and pleading for help, that would be the perfect thing to play at the very end of the DTs case presentation. :what:

i would be very interested in hearing the contents of that 66 second call.

 

[Gryffindor]

Wonder who the Defense will call this week?

 

[wb180]

No I do not think that he was legally insane at the moment of the shooting, that is a very specific legal defense here in the US.

No I do not think the gun fired itself.

Oscar was either in a blind rage or blind panic in the seconds that he fired the gun I don't necessarily believe that he knew in that moment that he would be reigning death on someone.

If you asked Oscar a week before the event if firing 4 shots from his 9mm into his toilet would kill someone I believe he would have said yes it would without a doubt kill the person in the toilet.

Blind rage and blind panics still means he intends to shoot. Pulling the trigger by definition means you intend to shoot and kill. Unless you are trying to argue he was he didn't know he pressed the trigger as gr was insane.

Connect the dots like a websleuth.

 

[Lyra500]

Not to be callous toward our brother's situation -I'm glad he's fine, of course. But if he'd bled to death, for example, while the medic was waiting for transport, not moving him wouldn't have mattered at all. Everything is very situation specific. Including how bad the injuries are and how far away help is - both in time and distance.

jmo

If someone is bleeding then what you need to do is call 911, 999 or whatever your national equivalent is and then let them talk you through how to minimise the bleeding by applying pressure etc (If you do n ot already know about first aid) whilst the ambulance is en route. it makes no sense whatsoever to stick the person in your car and allow them to bleed to death whilst you drive them to the hospital.

 

[Suthrnqt]

Wonder who the Defense will call this week?

The social worker..lol.

 

[homegirl]

liking the 3d work.

have you tried putting the path of the four shots together in 3d space, into the bathroom area... to give an idea of where - and what height - they may have been shot from? the floor tiles give a good grid reference

Those overhead shots were taken at an angle that makes it hard for me to place the figures. I am hopeful that we will get to see Wollie's laser photos tomorrow. That should make it possible to plot the bullet trajectories. I have not tried to create a 3#D environment with my program. I use it mainly for posing figures and in conjunction with Photoshop. I may give it a try with a home design program once I have more info.

 

[wb180]

The social worker..lol.

A local websleuther who still believe OP version (in essence/general/summary)

 

[Karmady]

If someone is bleeding then what you need to do is call 911, 999 or whatever your national equivalent is and then let them talk you through how to minimise the bleeding by applying pressure etc (If you do n ot already know about first aid) whilst the ambulance is en route. it makes no sense whatsoever to stick the person in your car and allow to bleed to death whilst you drive them to the hospital.

I am endlessly amazed by the lengths people will go to try and rationalise or defend OP's actions.

I was speaking of what I might do in that situation. Not trying to rationalize his actions. I've said it many times before in this forum, but I'll say it again. I DO NOT CARE whether he's found guilty or innocent. I don't think he's cute, or feel sorry for him, or want to diagnose him with a personality disorder, etc. I'm interested in the trial...that's it.

Putting "people' in a post might get it past the mods, but it's still condescending. jmo

 

[Giles]

The defense "dream team" included an American company hired to do an animated reenactment, but apparently it couldn't be done with the data provided, i.e. OP's account couldn't be visually reconciled with available evidence contradicting it. The animation might work up until he returned to the bedroom after the shooting, where what he claims he did there isn't possible, based on the police pics which Roux has not yet produced an expert or a Dixon to challenge. Even OP agreed with Nel that the duvet on the floor with the fan's foot on it and the fan blocking the balcony door he says he ran out of to yell for help 3x was "a problem for my version."

This is really interesting. I hadn't heard about this. I have tried searching for more information and can't find anything. Could you possibly provide a link or let us know where you heard this.

Many thanks.

 

[BabaJ]

They did look that way a little bit. It is because he was moving from left to right while reacquiring his aim with each consecutive pull of the trigger.

From the inside of the door, just look at the overhead photo taken from within the WC of the trajectory rods. Look closely and see that all of the rods point to a single area in the WC, they point to Reeva's head and upper body, and that is where the bullets hit.

Looking from the outside of the door his grouping is extremely tight vertically, and it does not vary much at all; his horizontal grouping is equally tight. All of that given that after the first shot his target moved as Reeva fell, screamed, covered her head, etc... and OP was moving left to right.

The bottom line is this, the grouping on the outside of the door made while OP was moving and firing means very little. The grouping of the bullets that hit Reeva, she is the target, not the door, is extremely tight with 2 of the 3 last bullets hitting her in the head and upper arm. That's successfully making a headshot and an upper center mass (area of her upper arm). That is a very good grouping.

Sorry, I am a little bit behind going through the posts. I have personally no experience with guns but my hubby used to shoot competitively from a variety of guns and was quite good at the national level in our country of origin. I asked him about his opinion and he basically agrees with you ie he says that OP was in good control with each shot (example - tight grouping vertically) and knew exactly what he was aiming at. He says that he knows a number of people who could hit a small target based on noise only during hunting. He has no doubts that OP either saw or heard Reeva and was aiming at her.

By the way we have never had any guns at home as he has always claimed that there are more incidents killing a family member or a friend rather than an intruder. He is absolutely paranoid with guns and the kids cannot even aim a toy at each other.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I had a dream about the trial last night. lol. In my dream Nel was explaining the pros version saying that there was an argument before the shots and explained a very probable reason for the argument with putting kind of evidence in detail. I remember being shocked and saying Yessss.. He killed her because of that!!
I'm struggling for a few hours :tantrum:but unfortunately can't remember what that motive /subject was ?? maybe I should give a break reading here lol :floorlaugh:

I'm trying attachment of a document the first time ...

(I have to say that I planned this in another way, sorry, doesn't work.)

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Was he in your dream harbouring jealousy that she would be appearing on National TV that week-end, In bikini etc , with all her beautiful attributes on full display to the nation etc. After all he is the famous one, god forbid if she were ever to steal his thunder in the celebrity department.

Also as discussed last year MS, he obviously did not know that she was intending to go out that evening with her friends and on being informed of this by his friend that afternoon, he phoned her and put a damper on that idea.

Strange though he made a point in his affidavit that she phoned him, I wonder why he included this, as what bearing did that have on the events of that night.

BBM That 's really strange and also there were lots of phone and whatsup messages between them on 13 Feb which apparently indicated that OP wanted Reeva to stay with him but Reeva either mentioned she would return Joburg at 03 p.m or offered him to spend time with family or in another message said she was going home and asked him to stay where he was..

There was no mention of Reeva's cinema programme with her friends on the messages (could be on phone though ) but we knew last year that OP was aware of that when he dropped by JD's who offered him a boys party out while the girls would go out for cinema.. Then probably he called Reeva for a quiet (!) dinner at home and only then at abt 4-5 pm Reeva seems to change her mind and stay.

12:11. Reeva ...... go Joburg at 03:00. pm
13:10 OP .......... stay tonight if you'd like.
13:10 Reeva ... consoling about the hurdle.
15:21. OP .... finishing at Ryan
15:21. Reeva. .... Thank you. suggests some family time with Ryan or Carl.
15:41 Oscar calls Reeva
15:46. Reeva.... I'm going home at 6:00 pm .Pls.stay.
15:54 Oscar calls Reeva.
17:12 Oscar calls Reeva.
17:44 Reeva calls Oscar .... different tower than house
18:00 Reeva's footage entering the estate.


Just speculation here . . Could it be that OP was unaware of Reeva's programme with the girls and he got furious when he learned that and maybe with his paranoia and extreme jealosy he thought that Reeva was trying to persuade him to stay and even offering a family time and was hiding that she would go out to the cinema ..
Maybe he suspected that they would go partying after and who else was included in that programme maybe rugby stay FH ?? And he refused going out with the boys and persuaded Reeva to stay .. Could that be a reason for the argument that escalated to be a motive for the murder?


JMO