Trial Discussion Thread #47 - 14.07.8, Day 38

[G.bng]

I agree that private citizens are entitled to their privacy.

But if someone is on the stand as an expert witness, I feel that they are fair game, certainly if they have an online website or cv.

Agreed entirely your comment on expert witnesses since it is after all their choice. And since I was only referring to private citizens we are agreed on that too.

 

[kaos]

BiB… to be fair, we have seen attorneys, former judges, experts of all kinds, give opinions with the express purpose of fueling ratings and lining their pockets.

Whilst those opinions where never lies or unprofessional, they were always tainted by some of the required sensationalism broadcasters crave and pay for.

The vast majority of us would be lost without their explanations of the SA judicial system and many here would value their opinion above that of joe bloggs so to dismiss their comments isn't fair.

 

[AJ_DS]

The vast majority of us would be lost without their explanations of the SA judicial system and many here would value their opinion above that of joe bloggs so to dismiss their comments isn't fair.

Fair enough

 

[Cherwell]

Agreed entirely your comment on expert witnesses since it is after all their choice. And since I was only referring to private citizens we are agreed on that too.

BBM

That wasn't clear from your post: "And let's face it every time a witness came in there were frantic attempts here and in other blogs to find a photo, a cv, i.e. glean anything and everything possible about them." I wasn't aware that anyone had tried to post photos of private witnesses anywhere, but I may have missed something.

 

[DebinGA]

The most credible witness imo was private citizen Ms. Burger who testified she heard 4 shots, with a pause after the first, later corroborated by Mangena. I can't remember if Wolmarans agreed re the pause, but his admission that he never asked OP how he held the gun, where in the room he fired it, or anything else, corroborates Ms B's evidence imo. And where's that defense witness Roux told Ms. Burger would testify that OP's screams sound female?

 

[kaos]

BBM

That wasn't clear from your post: "And let's face it every time a witness came in there were frantic attempts here and in other blogs to find a photo, a cv, i.e. glean anything and everything possible about them." I wasn't aware that anyone had tried to post photos of private witnesses anywhere, but I may have missed something.

I'm sure I remember people trying to find pictures of Samantha Taylor and researching Mrs Burger's university background. I may be wrong but think that did happen.

 

[luvmygarden]

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/opin...-vulnerability-a-new-disability/#.U7wEeKROV2F read more here.

"My opinion is that Oscar has an unusual condition, and there are a few more South Africans with the same. “AAAAA” is the acronym for “Anger Arrogance Athleticism Accelerator Attitude”. Throw in bad company, an untouchable uncle, beautiful women, guns, fast cars, alcohol, fame, fortune and somewhere along the line, **** is going to happen.
Other people with disabilities don’t want to be painted by the same brush.
My Lady, please don't accept this argument. We will be cursed if we are perceived as vulnerable and unpredictable"


This is a very good article about the Vulnerable and disabled. It's too bad we have OP to put a bad light on this population.
They have had to come along way for this "Vulnerable super star" to bring them down. OP is a danger to society with a family just as dangerous. By enabling his lack of ethics regarding his position and expectations of being able to shoot who he pleases and expect to get away with it.
Today I feel for the Steenkamps and all Reeva's family and friends. I hope the outcome of this trial is fair to Reeva.

 

[soozieqtips]

The most credible witness imo was private citizen Ms. Burger who testified she heard 4 shots, with a pause after the first, later corroborated by Mangena. I can't remember if Wolmarans agreed re the pause, but his admission that he never asked OP how he held the gun, where in the room he fired it, or anything else, corroborates Ms B's evidence imo.
And where's that defense witness Roux told Ms. Burger would testify that OP's screams sound female?

BBM - in another universe along with Roux's 'proof' that the head shot came first.

 

[soozieqtips]

I really wish we had had the benefit of Cape Town Crim's observations recently. I hope she will come back. And the other SA poster who was driven away.

Cape Town Crim and BarnacleZA are much missed for their intelligent posts and knowledge in the SA legal system.

I miss them both. Hope they at least come back for closing arguments.

 

[Viper]

Agreed… but the Appeal process is like the Trial : one can spend as much as they want… OP has shown that money is no object… so the Appeal will surely be expensive, with specialized attorneys and a lengthy and convoluted application with tons of jurisprudence on all aspects.

BiB… How about a friendly wager on that ?… the stakes... a case of delicious beer !

My guess is that OP has a better chance of staying out on bail than Brasil has of defeating Germany…

I'm not going to jeopardize my beer, or my Bourbon, on anything that has to do with that little man named Osca!

Germany over Brazil? :what: You really are trying to wind me up today AJ. LOL!!!

 

[Viper]

Cape Town Crim and BarnacleZA are much missed for their intelligent posts and knowledge in the SA legal system.

I miss them both. Hope they at least come back for closing arguments.

Maybe we should private message the heck out of them until they agree to spend some quality time with us.... :smile:

 

[AJ_DS]

I'm not going to jeopardize my beer, or my Bourbon, on anything that has to do with that little man named Osca!

Germany over Brazil? :what: You really are trying to wind me up today AJ. LOL!!!

Fair enough… but I'll drink a glass (or 2) of fine single malt and puff on a cigar when Masipa convicts OP… I'll repeat this ritual when OP is incarcerated and being bought and sold by inmates !!

As for Brasil… the star-player cannot play due to back injury and the team captain is not playing due to yellow cards… still hoping for a victory but I'm being realistic while secretly wishing to be proven wrong !! :shush:

 

[Viper]

It seems to me that when Nel asked Dr. D whether OP was a danger to society and should be removed, he was leading to this very discussion about the bail issue when an appeal is ultimately filed. It would be absolutely incredible if OP was found not guilty of murder given his own testimony about what he says happened that night. Roux's last few experts and the psych eval have painted a picture of OP as two different people. One is the great next door neighbor and the other is capable of killing if he gets startled because he has physical and psychological defects (insert your preferred word in place of defects if you like.). So if Masipa does convict OP of murder and one or more of the gun charges I strongly believe that Masipa will have no choice, in jurisprudence, but to remand OP in to custody. OP at that point cannot be allowed to be free where he could again hurt someone.

 

[soozieqtips]

It seems to me that when Nel asked Dr. D whether OP was a danger to society and should be removed, he was leading to this very discussion about the bail issue when an appeal is ultimately filed. It would be absolutely incredible if OP was found not guilty of murder given his own testimony about what he says happened that night. Roux's last few experts and the psych eval have painted a picture of OP as two different people. One is the great next door neighbor and the other is capable of killing if he gets startled because he has physical and psychological defects (insert your preferred word in place of defects if you like.). So if Masipa does convict OP of murder and one or more of the gun charges I strongly believe that Masipa will have no choice, in jurisprudence, but to remand OP in to custody. OP at that point cannot be allowed to be free where he could again hurt someone.

BBM - If he's free on appeal, what happens if he's startled again? I'm sure he could get his hands on one of Uncle's guns. None of the DT witnesses (that I can think of) have categorically stated that this was a one-off event that could never happen again. On the contrary, they've implied he's someone who has an inherent trait that makes him react differently to 'startles' than a less hyper-vigilant person, so what's to stop him killing out of 'fear' while out on appeal? Why should innocent people be put at risk from him? If OP is convicted of murder, the public's right to safety should outweigh his rights to live a normal life indefinitely while waiting for an appeal.

 

[jay-jay]

This startle thing .. how come OP didn't jump out of his skin when someone sneezed in court yesterday? I know I did! :scared:

 

[MeeBee]

The judge said quite clearly what she thought of 'leaked' information calling it theft. I realise she was talking about court documents being leaked but if that's her thinking, she may have seen the re-enactment video the same way so Nel was wise not to try and introduce it.

That was my thinking in why Nel did not want to pursue the video.

 

[kaos]

I wonder if the psychiatric team asked if he still slept with guards outside his bedroom door?

 

[MeeBee]

I remember Masipa saying that she didn't read newspapers, look at billboards etc re the case. I believe it would be an utter travesty of justice if she doesn't see it

But this ensures she makes a fair and un-interfered with decisions, much like jurors.

 

[whiterum]

That earlier posted heart -breaking picture of Reeva's bullet ridden body lying lifeless and alone at the bottom of OP's stairs, really brings it home just how utterly disgusting it is for the final DT witness to rabbit on for hours about her killer having to suffer blisters on his stumps and having to live with sweaty prosthetics etc. Is he oblivious to the fact that this guy blasted a beautiful young woman with four bullets almost amputating her arm , crushing her hip and blowing her brains out of her skull. My goodness it enough to make your blood boil with rage !!!

 

[G.bng]

So the DT can read the PT's heads of arguments… then the PT reads the DT's heads of arguments

Since many on WS are from the US where, AFAIK, the order for closing arguments is:

Prosecution ➽ Defence ➽ Prosecution rebuttal​

It appears that the prosecutor is given a second chance because since they have the burden of proof has been deemed fairer that they should be able to rebut any arguments the defense raises in their closing arguments.

IDK and IMBW, but since SA follows English procedural law very closely, our two tiered system of advocate/barrister - solicitor/attorney being identical (not surprising since we introduced it!), my hunch is they will follow our tradition, i.e. that in the interest of fairness the defendant, the one with the most to lose, must always be given the last word if that is their choice as it invariably is for obvious reasons, i.e.:

Prosecution ➽ Defence​

And if the presiding judge allows the prosecution a rebuttal speech to the defence's closing, they are obliged to give the defense a rebuttal speech to the prosecution's rebuttal, i.e.:

Prosecution ➽ Defence ➽ Prosecution rebuttal ➽ Defence rebuttal​

The following quote from the website "In Brief" describes the system:

Closing speeches
The defence has the right to either an opening or a closing speech, and invariably elects a closing speech, thus having the benefit of the last word. The prosecution does not have the right to a closing speech. However if either party wishes to make a second speech, they may do so with the leave of the court, but if the court is going to allow one party to make a second speech, it must allow the other party a second speech also. If both parties are allowed a second speech, the prosecution must go first, thus allowing the defence the benefit of the last word.