Trial Discussion Thread #47 - 14.07.8, Day 38

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  • #461

Re Cherwell's post regarding car keys



I also have been speculating that there may well have been a repetition of the Cassidy Taylor Memmory incident in that Oscar was being totally unreasonable, pushing Reeva to leave without her belongings, including keys.
 
  • #462
The three gun charges, OP did not mount much of a defense at all to any of them.

Did Dixon say that the Glock could fire without OP pulling the trigger? Did OP say the other guy pulled the trigger?

The illegal possession of the .38 caliber ammunition is done, no defense.

The shooting out of the car sunroof has two witness against OPs word and Samantha Taylor was not impeached by emails that Roux promised.

What can Roux possibly do?

I don't think that Masipa is only going to issue a "first offender" fine for all three crimes, especially in light of the murder charge on top of all of them. Jail.
 
  • #463
I found this timeline very helpful indeed.

Any ideas as to why Reeva would imply she was at the house when she wasn't?

Thanks Sherbert

I too wondered about that…

- If RS was on her way to OP's house why not just say that
- I can't see RS typing that Whatsapp message while she was driving to OP's house (but not impossible)

The message was sent about 30 minutes before she reached Silverwoods cell tower range… yet the cell tower from which that message was sent from was only about 15 minutes away from OP's house.

Perhaps RS was visiting a friend in Cabana Glen and she sent the message before leaving to go to OP's house
 
  • #464
The three gun charges, OP did not mount much of a defense at all to any of them.

Did Dixon say that the Glock could fire without OP pulling the trigger? Did OP say the other guy pulled the trigger?

The illegal possession of the .38 caliber ammunition is done, no defense.

The shooting out of the car sunroof has two witness against OPs word and Samantha Taylor was not impeached by emails that Roux promised.

What can Roux possibly do?

I don't think that Masipa is only going to issue a "first offender" fine for all three crimes, especially in light of the murder charge on top of all of them. Jail.

BiB… I agree

Even without consideration of the murder charge, the 3 minor gun charges demonstrate recidivism of dangerous and illegal gun-related behaviors.
 
  • #465
I also have been speculating that there may well have been a repetition of the Cassidy Taylor Memmory incident in that Oscar was being totally unreasonable, pushing Reeva to leave without her belongings, including keys.

Not quite what I meant. I was responding to another poster who asked why Reeva wouldn't have left if she wanted to. If OP wanted her to leave, he wouldn't have stopped her. The suggestion was rather that if he didn't want her to leave, he might have confiscated her car keys. It's just one of numerous possibilities.

The CTM situation is a little different, as she was not alone but part of a group. He seems not to have cared where they went or how they got there, as long as they were out of his house.
 
  • #466
I don't think that Masipa is only going to issue a "first offender" fine for all three crimes, especially in light of the murder charge on top of all of them. Jail.

I do hope so. Let him work on his appeals from inside! :devil:
 
  • #467
Thanks Sherbert

I too wondered about that…

- If RS was on her way to OP's house why not just say that
- I can't see RS typing that Whatsapp message while she was driving to OP's house (but not impossible)

The message was sent about 30 minutes before she reached Silverwoods cell tower range… yet the cell tower from which that message was sent from was only about 15 minutes away from OP's house.

Perhaps RS was visiting a friend in Cabana Glen and she sent the message before leaving to go to OP's house

Thanks, AJ!

I'm not sure what to think about that one...
 
  • #468
This is my first time commenting on this trial and I haven't followed it as closely as most here, but I have followed as much as I can through the news and I watched the Sunday Night Special.

When I first heard about Reeva's death I felt there was no way OP could have shot her on accident because he thought robbers were in the bathroom. I thought it had to be murder and I related Reeva's experience to my own and felt I could have been her. I was modeling and became involved with an actor, he was handsome and charming and well liked. He lavished me with attention and always wanted to know what I was doing. He would show up at my jobs unannounced with a gift. He called me several times a day. I was so flattered and loved how into me he seemed to be. I missed all the warning signs. I knew very early he had a bad temper. He was mean to service people like waitresses or grocery cashiers. He got into physical fights with people over what I saw as trivial slights. A few months into our relationship I printed off information about anger issues and programs he could attend. I wrote him a letter saying I felt he would be happier if he could learn how to live without such anger. I was such a naive little girl because it never crossed my mind he would ever turn that anger to me. Of course he did and it was horrific! I had knives held to my throat. He beat me until I was black and blue, but only in places that could be covered with clothing. He abused my pets and scared away all my friends. He completely broke me and isolated me from my family and anyone who cared about me. I was a shell of a human. He told my what I could eat and wear, even what temperature of water I could drink. I wasn't allowed to be in the sun so as not to age my skin. He was really scary! When I finally worked up the nerve to leave him he caught me trying to gather my things and went ballistic. He twisted my arm behind my back so hard he dislocated it and tore my rotator cuff. Then he used the scarf I was wearing to strangle me until I lost consciousness. He had warned me if I ever tried to leave he would kill me. Luckily his roommate came home and interrupted and called the police. He was arrested but both myself and his roommate were to scared to testify against him so he ended up only having to complete an anger management program and they put a permanent restraining order in place. I went into hiding and after a few years I heard he stopped looking for me. I only recently stopped having nightmares about him. He's still acting and in movies you would have seen. He's also still abusing women. I got a phone call from the DA where he lives and they said he had been arrested for beaten up the mother of his infant child. They wanted me to testify at his new trial. I really know I could have been killed him.

However, my own experience also makes me feel conflicted about OP guilt. My abuser groomed me for well over a year before he ever really hurt me. He tried so hard to be another person for that year. He was my dream man, other than his temper I saw him use on other people. He was so charming and romantic while subtly breaking me down and making me dependent on him emotionally and financially. He manipulated me into thinking all my friends were bad for me and even my family. He worked long and hard to hide the monster he really was until he was sure he had me exactly where he wanted me. Reeva and OP were only together 3 months, right? It seems like OP would have still been in the honeymoon phase and working on Reeva. I can see him making belittling remarks to her and then being really apologetic, but he wouldn't have gone full force abuser yet. It seems so extreme for so early in their relationship for him to become enraged enough to kill her. It's the only thing that makes me confused! I think from what I've read about her talking badly to her, he fits the profile of an abuser. It was just so early in their relationship for him to unleash such violence. It doesn't mean he didn't, but it doesn't fit the pattern I've since researched and read about following my experience. I didn't ever want to make the mistake of getting involved with another abuser again so have spent a lot of time since trying to recognize them.

The other information I read which gave me pause had nothing to do with OP. I started to read about the rampant crime and violence in South Africa. I can't imagine how that would affect the people living there. In the process of reading about it I found the story of Rudi Visagie, the former rugby player who accidentally shot to death his daughter when he thought she was a car thief http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/may/25/southafrica.rugbyunion How bad is crime in South Africa a man could do that on accident to his own child? Is it bad enough a man could really assume a noise in his bathroom was an armed criminal come to rob and maybe even kill him?

I'm very conflicted with this case. On one hand, I think OP is a controlling man with anger issues who is capable of domestic violence. On the other hand, I think crime is so rampant there he really could have thought Reeva was a robber! I haven't read or heard or seen anything in the evidence that's a "smoking gun" sort of detail for me. I'm very interested to see the outcome of the trial because I think it could easily go either way!

Anyway, sorry if I made no sense or sound ignorant because I don't know enough of the facts! I just wanted to share the thoughts I've had. Thanks!

Rain check....thank you for taking the time and strength to share this traumatic personal experience with the followers on this OP Trial forum. Relating how OP's behavior rings close to home with some of the "signs" you saw in your abuser. You do have much to be thankful for (although you experienced so much fear, personal injury and pain), in that you are out of that relationship, alive and sounds like you feel (somewhat) safe from his rath now, many years later.

With regards to the morning of Feb 13, 2013 and reasons you MAY feel torn on what really happened. Is OP lying?, was there an argument & he knew Reeva was in the toilet? Or did he really fear an intruder and all of Reeva's unknowing actions lead to this unusual "mistaken identity"? Since you state you know few facts, I feel fairly certain if you were to read over some of the facts, testimony and statements from OP (that can be found on this forum) you would come to a strong conclusion as to who is lying and what likely took place that morning, leaving Reeva dead.

Thank you for sharing with us your similiar situation. I can only imagine how difficult it was to write your post, with likely many tears being shed as you relived that horrible time in your life.

So happy you escaped that abuse and are working hard to move on and taking care to identify "signs" or concerns in future relationships. All my best to you. I hope you find true happiness. :tyou: Please post here again.
 
  • #469
Not quite what I meant. I was responding to another poster who asked why Reeva wouldn't have left if she wanted to. If OP wanted her to leave, he wouldn't have stopped her. The suggestion was rather that if he didn't want her to leave, he might have confiscated her car keys. It's just one of numerous possibilities.

The CTM situation is a little different, as she was not alone but part of a group. He seems not to have cared where they went or how they got there, as long as they were out of his house.

The situation is different, but the mentality is the same.

If he were angry, I could see him shoving her through the door without her keys, as he did with CTM.

I feel that he would be obstinate and very unreasonable, especially if, deep down, he wanted her to stay and work things out and she didn't.
 
  • #470
Ha, my partner just saw me catching up on a court session where someone's phone went off.

She said if you receive that much wrath from the Judge just for not checking your phones off before entering court, imagine what she's going to do with someone who didn't check it was their girlfriend before shooting them dead!

That makes a lot of sense. Might turn out to be quite insightful based on this "little clue" during proceedings.
 
  • #471
12:12:05 – Whatsapp
REEVA : "Baba I hope u don’t mind but I came back to the house to work a bit and do some washing. It will help me a lot to get stuff done and relieve some stress. I’ll go through to Jhb at like 3"

Reeva was stressed and had to get some work done (perhaps her speech). Being alone without distractions was her intended goal to get ‘stuff done’. Reeva tells Oscar her plan : leave around 3PM and return home to Joburg.

Although Reeva’s message reads like she is already at Oscar’s house, she is NOT. From the detailed billing info, Reeva arrived at Silverwoods between 12:45 and 13:02:52

BBM

I suspect this is just an idiom. 'I came back' instead of 'I'm coming back'.

Or perhaps she meant 'I hope u don’t mind if I come back to the house'. Actually that makes more sense.

But I've noticed several little turns of phrase that seem idiomatic of South African English (with people I know as well). Notice how she says 'like 3' and 'like 6' when referring to approximate times. I would say 'about 3' or 'around 3'. So .... i don't think it's important.
 
  • #472
Rain check....thank you for taking the time and strength to share this traumatic personal experience with the followers on this OP Trial forum. Relating how OP's behavior rings close to home with some of the "signs" you saw in your abuser. You do have much to be thankful for (although you experienced so much fear, personal injury and pain), in that you are out of that relationship, alive and sounds like you feel (somewhat) safe from his rath now, many years later.

With regards to the morning of Feb 13, 2013 and reasons you MAY feel torn on what really happened. Is OP lying?, was there an argument & he knew Reeva was in the toilet? Or did he really fear an intruder and all of Reeva's unknowing actions lead to this unusual "mistaken identity"? Since you state you know few facts, I feel fairly certain if you were to read over some of the facts, testimony and statements from OP (that can be found on this forum) you would come to a strong conclusion as to who is lying and what likely took place that morning, leaving Reeva dead.

Thank you for sharing with us your similiar situation. I can only imagine how difficult it was to write your post, with likely many tears being shed as you relived that horrible time in your life.

So happy you escaped that abuse and are working hard to move on and taking care to identify "signs" or concerns in future relationships. All my best to you. I hope you find true happiness. :tyou: Please post here again.

Thank you so much! That was many years ago and I'm now happily married with children! I stayed single for a long time after that experience.

On to the topic at hand, this is in reply to those who ask why she didn't just leave when they started to argue. I can give a personal example from relationship. During one of the first times he ever hit me, while we were fighting, I begged him to let me leave. I told him if he hated me so much and thought I was such a terrible person he could let me walk out the door and he would never hear from me again. He looked at me, picked up my purse and threw it at at me and told me to get the f out of his house. I was so relieved and took my purse and weekender bag and headed towards the bedroom door. As soon as my hand touched the doorknob, he grabbed me by the hair of the back of my head and violently snatched me backwards and threw me on the floor. He then picked up my bags and emptied them onto the floor and kicked my things around the room. Then he told me I better pick up my things before I go and laughed. I realized he was never going to let me go. He continued to abuse me. Throwing me against the wall and then onto the bed then jerking me off the bed by my ankles so my head smacked the floor. He ultimately kneeled on my chest and placed a knife against my throat. I cried and begged him not to kill me. When I said that he laughed, got off me and picked me up and kissed me. He said, "Awww, babe, I'm not going to kill you. I love you! I just need you to listen to me so I don't have to hurt you!"

Leaving may not have been an option for Reeva. Abusive, violent, controlling men don't just let you leave. They make it impossible! Reeva probably never had a chance to leave at any point.
 
  • #473
Thanks, though Rober did state on the video, "As you can hear the fans are quite loud umm and when I was doing the reconstruction at the scene I had both of these exact fans, it's quite loud and quite distracting. So at this particular time either while he was repositioning the fans or while he was closing the sliding glass doors Reeva gets up to go to the toilet."

To me that sounded like he did indeed use the ones from OP's and not these other ones, otherwise how could he know if they were as loud or perhaps louder than the ones in question?

That's a confusing quote from him. I wish I could view that show again to rewatch that part. Wasn't the reconstruction, with the room the exact dimensions, in a studio where the show was broadcast from? That's in Australia. How in the world would they get his fans there?! His exact furniture down to the nightstand lamps were the same as his, but I have to believe they just purchased replicas for the reconstruction.
 
  • #474
Perhaps you should take a look at the timeline of Whatsapp messages and phone calls before stating incorrectly that posters are wrong about something.

It's rather obvious that Reeva did NOT want to stay at Oscar's and that Oscar insisted that she stay.


12:12:05 – Whatsapp
REEVA : " Baba I hope u don’t mind but I came back to the house to work a bit and do some washing. It will help me a lot to get stuff done and relieve some stress. I’ll go through to Jhb at like 3 "

Reeva was stressed and had to get some work done (perhaps her speech). Being alone without distractions was her intended goal to get ‘stuff done’. Reeva tells Oscar her plan : leave around 3PM and return home to Joburg.

Although Reeva’s message reads like she is already at Oscar’s house, she is NOT. From the detailed billing info, Reeva arrived at Silverwoods between 12:45 and 13:02:52

13:02:52 – Oscar calls Reeva (4 m. 1 s.) – he whines about the ‘$h!tty thing’ that happened to him. Conversation until 13:06:53

About 4 minutes after that conversation Reeva sends Oscar this message

13:10:48 – Whatsapp
REEVA : " It’s a difficult thing to try to console you baba because it’s a $h!tty thing and you’re a nice guy. I guess these things happen and we can just hope they work out for the best. You are an amazing person with so many blessings and you are more than cared for. Your health and future monetary blessings far outweigh this hurdle I can promise you that "

13:40:54 – RS 5353 – Silverlakes tower – GPRS (2 h. 2 m. 20 s.) – Uninterrupted until 15:43:14 – Reeva initiates the Personal Hotspot on her phone

15:21:40 – Whatsapp – Reply to the 13:10:48 message from Reeva
OSCAR : " Thank you so much my angel. you don’t have to my angel. Stay tonight if you would like. "

15:21:52 – Whatsapp
OSCAR : " I’m just finishing off at Ryan "

Although Reeva has already stated that she will be going home to Joburg at 3PM and it’s now 20 minutes past 3PM, Oscar hints that she could stay the night at his house.

15:23:09 – Whatsapp
REEVA : " Thank you baba. Let me know if you’d like to spend time with M or Carl. I’m sure you maybe feel like some family tonight. "

Not wanting to tell him ‘No’, Reeva diplomatically suggests that Oscar should seek comfort and consolation from family members (Aimee or Carl). Reeva obviously gets that Oscar would like her to stay but she can’t accommodate him tonight.

15:41:54 – Oscar calls Reeva (1 m. 33 s.) – Conversation until 15:43:27

One can clearly infer the subject of this conversation from Reeva’s Whatsapp message that follows in 2.5 minutes at 15:46:10. Oscar is being insistent about having Reeva spend the evening with him.

15:43:14 – RS 5353 – Silverlakes tower – GPRS – Reeva terminates the Personal Hotspot on her phone

15:46:10 – Whatsapp
REEVA : " Angel I’m going to go home at like 6. Please stay and do whatever it was you were gonna do "

Reeva re-conveys her firm intent to go home to Joburg and pleads with Oscar for him to forget her for tonight. Her tone reads like a loving but exasperated mother that has to deny her son something he wants right away.

Reeva has to give a speech the very next morning in Joburg. The drive from Silverwoods to Joburg is a 1-hour drive without traffic. Driving in the evening, Reeva would be going in the opposite direction of weekday rush-hour traffic. In the morning, Reeva would be going in the same direction of weekday rush-hour traffic.

15:54:27 – Oscar calls Reeva (1 m. 53 s.) – 8 minutes after Reeva reaffirmed that she did not want to stay. Oscar insist again and manages to convince Reeva to stay that evening.

Whatever happened to OP's night with "the boys" and the movie that RS was supposedly invited to stay over for(with one of the "boys" gf's)? Wasn't that supposed to happen that night, or do I have the dates mixed up? I think I'd originally been thinking that that was the origin of where the media had come up with RS perhaps having snuck in to surprise OP for Valentine's... and then shot for being an intruder.
 
  • #475
This frustrates me so much if true: (regarding Roux hinting at appeal as a 'number' of witnesses did not testify due to media)

Criminal law experts believe the move is critical to keeping Pistorius out of prison if he is convicted. It tries to show that he has been prejudiced from the beginning of proceedings and prevented from getting a fair trial.

Professor Anthony Minnaar, of the Unisa school of criminology, said the strategy was clear and "transparent".

"It is to keep all options open for appeal . [An] appeal could very well be successful as Pistorius's defence team will be able to show that not all evidence has been heard as certain witnesses were too 'afraid' to testify.

"If they are successful in applying for an appeal, a whole new case will have to be made as the entire case will have to be taken up on review," he said.


http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/2014/07/09/oscar-keeps-all-options-open
 
  • #476
That's a confusing quote from him. I wish I could view that show again to rewatch that part. Wasn't the reconstruction, with the room the exact dimensions, in a studio where the show was broadcast from? That's in Australia. How in the world would they get his fans there?! His exact furniture down to the nightstand lamps were the same as his, but I have to believe they just purchased replicas for the reconstruction.

Certainly confusing, all I can say is I took his "at the scene" to mean he'd used OP's stuff to originally plan out the reconstruction that they then reconstructed with similar items on their site so as to make their animations. If you note the animation, it does portray the correct 3 legged floor fan.
 
  • #477
I'm still on page 18... playing catchup... I'm blown away by all the fab posts I've been treated to... way to go peeps!!!

Welcome aboard to nunehi, sherbert, and raincheck !!! Excellent posts/posters... so please come early, stay late, and keep sharing. (:

@nunehi - As you know, we have many valuable posters onbrd. However, we crave having SA posters here... for your input, from your vantage point, is simply invaluable to this board. I consider your transcription (from Afrikaan to English, no less) of the SA law prof's "7 Misconceptions" in OP's case to be a "must read" for everybody:
[Pg. 18, Post #432]

@sherbert - imo your analysis of EVDM not having heard OP's voice that fateful night was excellent. Another "must read" imo:
[Pg. 18, Post #439]

@raincheck
- I've been saddened (and, quite frankly, shocked) by the large number of posters here who had former boyfriends who abused them. Your personal story is an excellent example of how even bright/beautiful women can fall into the victim trap. And you happen to be a model... I've learned from other victims over the years that these abusive monsters are great actors in public. And yours was an actual actor... grrrh. Another "must read" for all:
[Pg. 18, Post #427]


@Freya - Freya has posted the OP re-enactment vid and says she/he will download it tonight in case it disappears... again. (:
[Pg. 17, Post #401]

@Margaret - Wow and thank you! Margaret has transcribed (in 5 parts) Nel's x-exam of OP regarding gunshots, intent, etc.
[Pg. 17, Post #419-423]

MOO
 
  • #478
Thanks Sherbert

I too wondered about that…

- If RS was on her way to OP's house why not just say that
- I can't see RS typing that Whatsapp message while she was driving to OP's house (but not impossible)

The message was sent about 30 minutes before she reached Silverwoods cell tower range… yet the cell tower from which that message was sent from was only about 15 minutes away from OP's house.

Perhaps RS was visiting a friend in Cabana Glen and she sent the message before leaving to go to OP's house

I had read that she had stopped to pick up the finishing touches for her Valentine's gift to OP... some clerk somewhere had been interviewed by media way back when.... oh and then Baba had referred to her leaving with laundry so when she came back just before OP he hadn't bothered to call him to let him know, which it seems he was supposed to do?
 
  • #479
Part 4

[...]

GN : No, answer the question, you never deliberately pulled the trigger, so, you never wanted to shoot at robbers, intruders, coming out of the toilet
OP : That’s correct My Lady

[...]

GN : Now let so, you never wanted to shoot the rob, the intruders coming out of the door
OP : That’s correct My Lady
GN : But we know they went into, (must be toilet but didn’t sound like it), we know that Reeva went in there. There was no reason for you to shoot, objectively, after the fact, as we stand here today; you had no reason to shoot
OP : That’s correct My Lady

This is what helps take putative self defense off the table IMO. If he acted in putative self defense, he would've intended to shoot because he genuinely believed an attack on his life was imminent. He said more than once during his testimony that he didn't intend to shoot anyone.

The best he can hope for IMO is that he convinced milady that he truly thought there was an intruder in his toilet, but acted negligently by firing, since there obviously was no intruder, thus looking at a conviction of culpable homicide.

The four shots (with a pause after the first) and the ear witnesses who heard arguing and a woman scream are what seal his fate with a murder conviction. MOO
 
  • #480
I had read that she had stopped to pick up the finishing touches for her Valentine's gift to OP... some clerk somewhere had been interviewed by media way back when.... oh and then Baba had referred to her leaving with laundry so when she came back just before OP he hadn't bothered to call him to let him know, which it seems he was supposed to do?



Right. I found the post abt the shop assistant who wrapped her VD gift..
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...ntines-1740299 (now seems deleted)

QUOTE

Tragic Reeva Steenkamp made a framed four-photo collage showing herself and lover Oscar Pistorius just 12 hours before he killed her, it was revealed yesterday.

A Party Box shop assistant who says she wrapped the gift told how Reeva, 29, acted “like any girl in love” on her visit the day before.

The woman who asked not to be named, said: “She was very friendly. We joked about a girl having to buy her boyfriend something if she wants something in return on Valentine’s Day.”


QUOTE

The day before Valentine’s Day Cecil helped Reeva choose photos she wanted to have framed to give to Oscar as a Valentine’s Day present.
 
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