Trial Discussion Thread #52 - 14.11.9, Day 41 ~announcement of the verdict~

[Cloen]

What I don't understand is , as the Judge said she thought Oscar was a poor witness, why did she take his word for it that Oscar thought there was an Intruder in the toilet ? she's believing his version. If she believes his version, she therefore believe that Reeva didn't make a SOUND from the moment Oscar got out of bed , did some ninja-ing down his passageway towards the danger having grabbed his gun , still didn't hear or see Reeva, and even after he shouted out Get the f*** outa ma owse ...... Reeva still remained silent, and never said a word, or screamed her head off in pain after the bullets ripped through her body - and the Judge is basically saying that she believes the witnesses heard Oscar screaming for his life and that he sounds like a woman (the very evidence that the Defence failed to produce but said they would) Oscar screaming for his life, blood-curdling screams........in fear of ???? a wooden magazine rack ?

Wondering if Unc Arn left the Courtroom to go to the cashpoint.

 

[soozieqtips]

13:57:

Correspondents say Judge Masipa may have adjourned early because Oscar Pistorius had become upset.

I can't believe that's the reason. Why would OP's feelings be given more consideration than those of Reeva's family? They're the ones who lost someone, not OP. Didn't Masipa do enough mollycoddling during the trial itself?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-29143544

 

[sleuth-d-]

It's ridiculous. OP had two options. He could say he killed Reeva after an argument, or he could say he thought she was an intruder and that's how he ended up killing her. How long did Masipa think it would take to come up with one of those two options? OP had to think fast, and he didn't have a lot of excuses to come up with. So he took the obvious option (rather than admit murder) and said he thought she was an intruder. Then all he had to do was to repeat the same words to anyone who showed up at the house, and wait for five days to get his affidavit sorted out. Why on earth Masipa would think he came up with the intruder story too quickly for it to be false is skewed logic to me.

masipa even demonstrated how easy it was to use the 'intruder' defence by coming up with an alternative. shoot her as she stands next to the bed, and say it was a dark silhouette. i wonder how long it took her to think of that?

and apparently masipa would have acquitted in those circumstances... bizarre

 

[aa9511]

I am extremely disappointed with Masipa. It sounded like she actually believed his story. Like when she was saying, his intent wasn't to kill anyone, much less Reeva, because he thought she was sleeping. What else could that possibly mean other than that she BELIEVED his pitiful, pathetic story?

I would have respected her decision if she had made it clear that there were many holes on his story and she is not sure if she believes his story, but that there was just not enough evidence to prove him guilty of murder.

IDK, or maybe she didn't want the world to know she didn't believe his story, so as not to "brand" him a murderer even though she found him not guilty??

Who knows.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Wonder what Masipa’s verdict would have been if Reeva had killed Oscar (same exact scenario)?

Would the Pistorius family still plead “terrible accident”, hold public prayer sessions for Reeva’s freedom and launch spin-city press releases and PR twitter campaigns in her defense?

Would Oscar Supporters be Reeva Supporters?

Like the “double standard” relationship OP demanded of Reeva, we know the answers.

They would be baying for BLOOD.

 

[zoran]

I find it extremely odd that after just a few months of knowing Reeva, OP blows her brains out intentionally because of something she said.
Yes it happens but its rare for the reason I mentioned, also lets face it he had the world at his feet (no pun) and charmed life of roaming the world as a commentator/ambassador/hero.

Now combine that with the prosecutions inability to build a case without doubt and you have OP cleared of the most serious charges and Guilty of manslaughter.

It makes sense to me.

 

[sleuth-d-]

I am extremely disappointed with Masipa. It sounded like she actually believed his story. Like when she was saying, his intent wasn't to kill anyone, much less Reeva, because he thought she was sleeping. What else could that possibly mean other than that she BELIEVED his pitiful, pathetic story?

I would have respected her decision if she had made it clear that there were many holes on his story and she is not sure if she believes his story, but that there was just not enough evidence to prove him guilty of murder.

IDK, or maybe she didn't want the world to know she didn't believe his story, so as not to "brand" him a murderer even though she found him not guilty??

Who knows.

did masipa really say 'op thought she was sleeping'?
as that was never mentioned during the case. quite the opposite, op was at pains to 'version' that she was awake, and spoke to him.

 

[turaj]

13:57:



I can't believe that's the reason. Why would OP's feelings be given more consideration than those of Reeva's family? They're the ones who lost someone, not OP. Didn't Masipa do enough mollycoddling during the trial itself?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-29143544

You know I think that is probably just what happened. She did it repeatedly during this trial...why not today too. Also I seriously doubt she has had some "epiphany" as some have said and realized how wrong she is.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Considering this latest revolting, hideous judicial development, perhaps Dewani was on to something by stopping off in South Africa for a few days with his new bride.

Travel agencies all over the world will soon offer the insanely popular South African “Oscar Defense” Deluxe Package to the wealthy and privileged around the globe (Gugulethu taxi tours optional; personalized green bucket optional; most bribes included; bail and legal defense extra).

 

[Forensics]

Ikr? It's like forensics has gone out the window.

......no, I'm still here!!!!

 

[Sherbert]

Thank you for that. The problem I have with Masipa over this issue is that she contradicts herself as soon as she starts speaking about CH where she clearly states that he must have known he was likely to have killed someone. How on earth can he not foresee killing someone when pumping 4 bullets into a small cubicle, which then precludes him from a verdict of dolus eventualis, and yet needs to be aware of the risk of doing so to meet the criteria for Masipa to find him guilty of CH. (I know we haven't quite got there yet but that looks like where we are going). Doesn't stack up to me.

BBM. On the evidence, I agree that he must have known that he was likely to harm/kill the person behind the door, but I think Masipa says he didn't foresee this as a possibility, although a reasonable person would have done. So, she doesn't agree with us as far as OP is concerned.

I'm not sure that she does contradict herself on the law, although, had she wanted to, she could easily have found the evidence to support eventualis.

 

[Wondergirl]

God, the more I read here, the angrier I am getting.

Wtf was she thinking? Does she really believe what judgement she has passed?

It's really outrageous.

JMO

 

[ApplesInMyBra]

How I wish we could all have been flies on the wall in Nel's chambers after Masipa called it a day!! I would SO very much like to hear what he thought of all of this nonsense!!

 

[ApplesInMyBra]

Also, sorry in advance, I am new to the forum, but I've seem load of people post BBM - what does that mean? Blackberry Message?

 

[ApplesInMyBra]

BBM. On the evidence, I agree that he must have known that he was likely to harm/kill the person behind the door, but I think Masipa says he didn't foresee this as a possibility, although a reasonable person would have done. So, she doesn't agree with us as far as OP is concerned.

I'm not sure that she does contradict herself on the law, although, had she wanted to, she could easily have found the evidence to support eventualis.

She does contradict herself massively.
Check the Part 2 video on this page at roughly 12:15
http://www.wildabouttrial.com/one_of...trial-archive/
She is describing Dolus Eventualis verbatim, but she found him not guilty of it.

 

[Val1]

If she gives him a standard 12 years sentence for CH, which I believe she will, OP will appeal and the State will also appeal, wanting a longer sentence and his conviction for Murder. The appellate court may justly increase his conviction to Murder and/or increase his sentence(s). OP is not going to walk free from his crimes, he is locked in the SA criminal justice system and Gerrie Nel is a freaking Pit Bull!

Honestly, I tried to believe that assertion when Nel suddenly closed his case after that little visit to the judge's chambers(as quickly as she suddenly shut down her recital today), hoping that everyone was right that he had put enough on the plate to satisfy her and the law. At this point I think this will be the last case I spend my time on and you can be sure that should I ever be called as a witness, I will remember how these very credible witnesses have been branded as unreliable by the judge and liars by the defence and take Frank's lead.

As for what I witnessed early this morning(my time) the judge and/or her assessors seem to have totally swallowed OP's tears, the DT's timeline and ignored or distorted a lot of the evidence(arterial spray 10 minutes after she believes RS was shot dead??, ability of witnesses to have heard only bat bangs but supposedly not gunshots, that all witnesses cannot tell the difference between a woman and a man's screams, even when intermingled, that Mrs.Stipps was ill with the flu at the time and could easily have mistaken her clock to have read 3:12 instead of 3:02 but chose to toss all her and apparently ALL the PT witnesses' testimonies and instead believe a documented lying defendant with "his life on the line", regardless that there was pathology verified by the DT's, ballistics verified by the DT's, a gun permit iirc entered along with a witness testifying that OP did indeed know the law regarding use of firearms, etc...). I am gobsmacked.

 

[Figuring]

Two things: one, sorry to the mods. I got carried away earlier about the judge. You were right to snip me!

The next: wondering if anyone knows what Pistorius was crying about today. I mean it. Did he not understand? Were they tears of relief that it wasnt premeditated murder? Was he trying to manipulate the verdict, or disrupt the court? It seems to me he should feel he's sitting pretty, since it appears to be CH which is what his defence had said it ought to be, and besides which there's no min sentence. Is he just crying that he wasnt acquitted, I wonder?

 

[Cloen]

She does contradict herself massively.
Check the Part 2 video on this page at roughly 12:15
http://www.wildabouttrial.com/one_of...trial-archive/
She is describing Dolus Eventualis verbatim, but she found him not guilty of it.

this explains some of the reasoning behind today's Verdict -(but Oscar does not scream like a girl). And reading DS it's sandy to read perspective there on today and majority seem shellshocked too that she's ruled out Eventualis). I found this on DS - I have always found James Grant very good

Legal Round Table Discussion - Day 1 of verdict. (Audio only, and not of the highest quality)
David O’Sullivan with Professor James Grant, Mannie Witz and David Unterhalter. (40 mins)
https://soundcloud.com/giles-10/lrt-...-day-1/s-7vMJH

Legal Discussion (Channel 199) - David O’Sullivan with Marius Du Toit and Professor Stephen Tuson. (Audio, 7 mins)
https://soundcloud.com/giles-10/lega...ussion/s-Ocpyt

 

[turaj]

Two things: one, sorry to the mods. I got carried away earlier about the judge. You were right to snip me!

The next: wondering if anyone knows what Pistorius was crying about today. I mean it. Did he not understand? Were they tears of relief that it wasnt premeditated murder? Was he trying to manipulate the verdict, or disrupt the court? It seems to me he should feel he's sitting pretty, since it appears to be CH which is what his defence had said it ought to be, and besides which there's no min sentence. Is he just crying that he wasnt acquitted, I wonder?

I clearly took it that it was crying because he escaped a murder charge...sheer relief.

 

[cubbeegirl]

Been really busy today.. can someone please tell me , in a nutshell what the hell happened?
TYIA