Trial Discussion Thread #57 - 14.16.10, Day 46 ~ sentencing~

[ApplesInMyBra]

I also want to add that this pianist contacted me, and revealed all of this information because she saw me always posting remarks about the trial on Facebook. I did not contact her.

 

[AW2B]

I'm sure I'm not the only one, but I really wish that Nel would write a book after this whole ordeal. I would really like to understand his approach, how his team looked at all the evidence, why or why not he decided to call specific witnesses, what he thought about the verdict and upcoming sentencing and what he thought about Masipa's incessant sidling with Roux. I would buy that book in a heartbeat!!

BBM

Same here. But above all.. I really wish that Nel would file an appeal to reverse the verdict to "guilty" of murder..

 

[zoran]

will they wrap it up today?

 

[Greater Than]

I hope that Nel points out in closing that it's a monstrous idea that someone with OP's disability and diet needs, blah blah, shouldn't be put in prison. He cannot be seen to be immune from punishment just because his egg yolks might not be the right shade of yellow, or someone might run off with his legs! And what about if in the future, he kills again, will he always be allowed to stay out of prison? He'll still have the same disability.

I do feel that if he's not given any prison time at all, and is allowed a choice of community service, that the whole system is not only corrupt and unjust, but sets a precedent where everyone who has 'needs' can appeal their sentence. I'm sure his family will visit all the time, and if there are any complaints, they'll be made public and sorted out. He'll be shielded in a hospital wing FFS. What more assurances does Roux want?

The court should be reminded that OP is an elite athlete. An Olympian. He competed against international able-bodied athletes at the highest level. He has learned to adapt to and compensate for his disability his entire life. He has repeatedly argued that he doesn't consider himself disabled. "I don't see myself as disabled. There's nothing I can't do that able-bodied athletes can do." He even said he chooses to not park in handicapped parking spaces. (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/15/sports/othersports/15runner.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0)

All this nonsense about cement floors and bathtubs... Can we please take a look at OP's house? It was two stories, with no elevator. The staircase was hardly handicap friendly - it made a 90 degree turn halfway up. And the floors? All tile or hardwood except for the bedrooms. His shower did have a built-in tiled bench, so let the prison provide a portable bench for him to sit on when he showers and call it a day. Good grief.

 

[lithgow1]

Bringing this over from yesterday's thread...points relating to perceptions of the Pistorius family and the data wiping incident on the phone respectfully snipped to focus my response.

The crack in the door has never been successfully argued away or even mitigated either in court or on websleuths. It is critical and definitive and it was rightly critical and definitive in the Culpable Homicide judgement.

Relating to your second point, unless you are referring to another point in the judgement Masipa did NOT claim what you suggest. She used the pathologist's evidence about Reeva's devastating injuries to support the idea that she could not have screamed 'at least in the way the witnesses reported that night'. It was not an opinion on whether Oscar could have heard her scream, it was an opinion that Reeva could not have been the person that the witnesses heard screaming after the shots because her injuries were too devastating.

Thanks for the reply. I'm just catching up from a night of nothing Pistorius related. I notice other people have addressed some of what you say above and they are no doubt more familiar with the nitty gritty of the case than I am. All I can say is that there is more than one way to interpret damage to doors and given that there is only one living eyewitness to the events of that night a lot boils down to how much credence one gives to his version of events. I give little to none. It was a far fetched story from the start and I just don't believe it. He wouldn't be the first guilty person that an expensive legal team adept at muddying the waters has 'gotten off' and I believe that that is what has happened here.Beyond that there is nothing I can add really. You claimed to 'know' that the Pistorius clan care about what happened to Reeva Steenkamp; I'll claim to 'think' that Oscar Pistorius murdered her and we'll just have to leave it at that.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

You guys,
I just got contacted by an old family friend of ours (we've know each other for years and years, but we haven't spoken at all for a year). She is a very famous South African pianist (who now lives in the States) but her family still all live in South Africa. This pianist's father is a very powerful and wealthy property developer in South Africa, in the Pretoria area where the Pistorius crew run(amuck). Her father is well connected and in-the-know about rich people and celebrities, and so is her sister who is a well known actress in South Africa, also connected to the rich and famous there. This pianist just told me that Aunt Lois's mother is neighbors with her father, and how she would always lament about how miserable her daughter Lois is because Uncle Arnold has been having an affair with his secretary for years and years, and how Lois has just been turning a blind eye.

Also, the pianist's celebrity sister heard first hand in the gym from some other celebrity that she had been sleeping with OP while him and Reeva were dating. This was NOT Jenna Edkins, but some other model!!!! The pianist's sister even saw texts from OP to this model and they (the pianist's sister and the model sleeping with OP) discussed as a joke whether OP and her had sex with or without his legs on!!!!!
FFS, I immediately told the pianist that her sister needs to go and tell someone about this, and she replied that her sister did go and talk to someone, but because she didn't have screenshots of the text messages, her evidence was only hearsay, so she let it go.

I promise you folks that this new breaking information is from a very dependable person with lots of integrity who won't make this **** up, a world-renown pianist!!! These might be the very text messages that CP wiped from OP's phone!! Yet another person he'd been bonking behind Reeva's back!!
My head is spinning!

Wow, thank you for sharing this, especially since OP and his team persist with the whole 'Reeva was the love of his life! She was the 'one'! I'm convinced now those texts were crucial because it was the catalyst for the argument and the shooting. Reeva found out on Valentine's Day. No wonder CP took control of the phone and wiped all those incriminating texts.
I realize now what a small world it is, and specifically in SA. The upper classes would know all the nitty gritty stuff.

:tyou:

 

[Greater Than]

I'm with you. Judge Masipa is a sad excuse for a judge. I find her embarrassing. Is this killer was a poor, uneducated, black man from Pretoria, he would have been found guilty and sentenced way back - the end. But Masipa is giving this one a pass. The entire thing is disgraceful.

OP is a confrontational narcissist with a very short fuse. History will undoubtedly repeat itself. And when it does, I hope Masipa prepared to live with his next victim's blood on her hands.

 

[ApplesInMyBra]

Wow, thank you for sharing this, especially since OP and his team persist with the whole 'Reeva was the love of his life! She was the 'one'! I'm convinced now those texts were crucial because it was the catalyst for the argument and the shooting. Reeva found out on Valentine's Day. No wonder CP took control of the phone and wiped all those incriminating texts.
I realize now what a small world it is, and specifically in SA. The upper classes would know all the nitty gritty stuff.

:tyou:

I can definitely confirm that it is a very small community in South Africa. The rich know the rich, the thugs know the thugs. Remember South Africa is more or less the size of Texas, or less...

 

[Estelle]

If the above posted link doesn’t work this one should:

http://www.702.co.za/articles/476/mickey-schultz-explains-his-presence-at-oscartrial

Interview with Mikey Schultz

One question about this interview. Mickey said that OP was NOT there with his cousin. He was there with .......? Can anyone please tell me who he said OP was with at the night club?

 

[alioop]

If this whole trial was a John Grisham book, the critics would be saying its well beyond the realms of believability. The SA legal system has some very odd elements to it in my opinion, at least from what I have seen in this case. All this stuff about the nature of prison in the sentencing phase just astounds me. Prison is supposed to be for punishment and deterrence. Whether there are showers with doors or rails is just mind boggling. And the judge asking about the courses and education in prison! Don't get me started on that.

 

[Estelle]

You guys,
I just got contacted by an old family friend of ours (we've know each other for years and years, but we haven't spoken at all for a year). She is a very famous South African pianist (who now lives in the States) but her family still all live in South Africa. This pianist's father is a very powerful and wealthy property developer in South Africa, in the Pretoria area where the Pistorius crew run(amuck). Her father is well connected and in-the-know about rich people and celebrities, and so is her sister who is a well known actress in South Africa, also connected to the rich and famous there. This pianist just told me that Aunt Lois's mother is neighbors with her father, and how she would always lament about how miserable her daughter Lois is because Uncle Arnold has been having an affair with his secretary for years and years, and how Lois has just been turning a blind eye.

Also, the pianist's celebrity sister heard first hand in the gym from some other celebrity that she had been sleeping with OP while him and Reeva were dating. This was NOT Jenna Edkins, but some other model!!!! The pianist's sister even saw texts from OP to this model and they (the pianist's sister and the model sleeping with OP) discussed as a joke whether OP and her had sex with or without his legs on!!!!!
FFS, I immediately told the pianist that her sister needs to go and tell someone about this, and she replied that her sister did go and talk to someone, but because she didn't have screenshots of the text messages, her evidence was only hearsay, so she let it go.

I promise you folks that this new breaking information is from a very dependable person with lots of integrity who won't make this **** up, a world-renown pianist!!! These might be the very text messages that CP wiped from OP's phone!! Yet another person he'd been bonking behind Reeva's back!!
My head is spinning!

BIB Did you ever find out the answer as to whether they did or didn't? :floorlaugh:

Also, I have read somewhere that OP used to see a model once a week while he was seeing Reeva but she has never been named.

 

[katydid23]

So what is on tap for today in court? Do they start the final arguments?

 

[mirage1]

I'm sorry if it seems rude. I don't mean to be rude. But people do have varying abilities in life though, and reasoning is one of them. I can't ballet dance for crap for example but I'm good at logic and reason. 'Pistorius must be lying' IS poor reasoning, even with your assumption that nothing relevant was moved. Pistorius could have compromised memory in such a frantic scene, for example. Simply mistaken about his actions. Forgot he himself moved things. Was unaware he moved things. Whatever. I'm not suggesting there is any evidence for this, but pointing our the assumption that makes it poor reasoning. Pistorius could have just been wrong. He doesn't have to have been lying.

You claim to be good at reasoning, yet it is quite lacking here. I know you prefer to argue about uncertain debatable semantics like bullet holes, and bat strikes, noises, that can never be concluded 100%, and will remain questionable, but this issue is very black and while. We have clear photo evidence, vs Oscar's version of events. There is no doubt or muddy water here. It's fact.

Now, you claim Oscar could simply be mistaken or forgotten details, it does not mean he is lying, or as you so eloquently put it 'whatever'. There is no 'whatever', we are talking about his version of events his explanation for how he shot dead a person, he can't be mistaken, his defence relies on his version being consistent with the evidence, and if it incompatible then it means its not true. It's not about him forgetting details, it's about the photo's making his version impossible, even according to Oscar himself, he admitted it.

However there is little reason to be certain the scene was intact. To my recollection Roux argued that the fan might have been moved because Van Rensburg went on to the balcony but didn't recall seeing it initially at all, and then later recalled seeing a fan but didn't know if it was on. We don't have Botha's testimony at all. The police had to acknowledge some errors in recollection and we know some things were moved. Nobody is suggesting that the scene was 'tampered' with but it is very easy to imagine a large item like a fan being moved to get to access places or views in that small bedroom without anticipating how important it might be later.

Complete nonsense. You can't just dismiss photographic evidence, or any evidence as unreliable without zero evidence, this is laughable. There is no evidence the scene photos was not accurate, no we must assume they are, especially considering the extremely implausible suggestion that 5 items were 'accidentally' placed in positions that make Oscars story impossible. There is much more than 1 fan being moved. Just a quick summary for you.

1. Oscar claims he moved the large fan from the balcony door, placed it at the front of the bed, and closed the curtains. This MUST be true for his version to be true, there is no mistaken here. The only option is to believe not only did the police accidentally move these items, but actually reversed what Oscar did!! They must have moved the fan right in front of the door and opened the curtains wide! Why and how could this possibly happen? Please explain, and keep in mind this MUST be reasonably explained, not just 'whatever'. In combination with the following of course...because there is so much more in photo 55.

2. Oscar claims the small fan was also in front of the door, which he moved, but the problem is there was no room for it to ever be plugged in where he claimed, because Nel showed evidence the adapter was full. Oscar was not mistaken he was ADAMANT he did this.

3. The Duvet was on the floor right where he claimed the fan had been, which means the police must have accidentally dragged it off the bed and put it there AFTER they moved the fans.

4. The jeans were on top of the duvet which means they must have accidentally dropped them on top AFTER they moved everything else. A major problem is that a blood trail on the carpet lines up perfectly with the duvet on the floor which basically proves it was there all along.


Like I said before, these things must have happened. Oscar cannot be mistaken because his whole reason for getting out of bed, and not hearing reeva while moving the fans, relies on this. If you are as good at reasoning as you claim you will know the above is not only not reasonably possible, but practically impossible, and further more there is no evidence to suggest anything to the contrary, thus Oscar is 100% guilty based on this. I find your flippant dismissal of such damning evidence quite disturbing, almost as if you have a different agenda.

I notice you also argued that this issue is not that important because the defence theory was dead by the apparently conflicting times lines, noises etc, but actually the above proves Oscars story was dead from the very beginning. The above is what commenced the entire sequence, and if its invalid then everything that follows is irrelevant.

 

[JudgeJudi]

You guys,
I just got contacted by an old family friend of ours (we've know each other for years and years, but we haven't spoken at all for a year). She is a very famous South African pianist (who now lives in the States) but her family still all live in South Africa. This pianist's father is a very powerful and wealthy property developer in South Africa, in the Pretoria area where the Pistorius crew run(amuck). Her father is well connected and in-the-know about rich people and celebrities, and so is her sister who is a well known actress in South Africa, also connected to the rich and famous there. This pianist just told me that Aunt Lois's mother is neighbors with her father, and how she would always lament about how miserable her daughter Lois is because Uncle Arnold has been having an affair with his secretary for years and years, and how Lois has just been turning a blind eye.

Also, the pianist's celebrity sister heard first hand in the gym from some other celebrity that she had been sleeping with OP while him and Reeva were dating. This was NOT Jenna Edkins, but some other model!!!! The pianist's sister even saw texts from OP to this model and they (the pianist's sister and the model sleeping with OP) discussed as a joke whether OP and her had sex with or without his legs on!!!!!
FFS, I immediately told the pianist that her sister needs to go and tell someone about this, and she replied that her sister did go and talk to someone, but because she didn't have screenshots of the text messages, her evidence was only hearsay, so she let it go.

I promise you folks that this new breaking information is from a very dependable person with lots of integrity who won't make this **** up, a world-renown pianist!!! These might be the very text messages that CP wiped from OP's phone!! Yet another person he'd been bonking behind Reeva's back!!
My head is spinning!

How amazing about bible-bashing Uncle Arnold. Is the model you're referring to Erin Stear? If you don't know, can you find out?

 

[Estelle]

She was just afraid of catching cooties. :facepalm:

Which brilliant court personnel thought it would be a good idea to seat these gentlemen near Lady Pistorius anyways? Couldn't they see the commotion coming? She's far too delicate to even be in the same room with such ruffians. :laughing:

For heavens sakes. Aimee was about six seats away from them. I believe Schultz who said that AP was crying because she had realised after Martin's testimony and their being able to find a suitable single cell for him that OP would be going to jail after all. Prior to that, she was probably confident that he would get house arrest. Going to prison would bring more shame on the family too.

 

[K.T]

You guys,
<snipped>
Also, the pianist's celebrity sister heard first hand in the gym from some other celebrity that she had been sleeping with O! These might be the very text messages that CP wiped from OP's phone!! Yet another person he'd been bonking behind Reeva's back!!
My head is spinning!

Thanks! That is quite explosive if true, undercuts Pistorius testimony that Steenkamp was his "one" and there was a stable "loving" relationship. Also may weaken the testimony they were on the verge of living together and that there was no motive for an argument on Valentine's Day. If Steenkamp found his messages to a rival, if not about sex, even if only flirting, that is an obvious relationship stessor.

In any regard this type of information has a possibility of high public interest in certain fields.

It would be damaging if there was any evidence, or if the actual model/woman came forward publicly and revealed his online messages. If it's heresay or rumours from your pianist friend that has more weight if there was an interview with her...but if this is all you have than there are ways these interesting allegations could find a larger audience.

I would write something like a blog post, revealing as much information as one could find. Then tweet or send that to every media, journalist on Twitter etc. Its all about wording too...

 

[Estelle]

How amazing about bible-bashing Uncle Arnold. Is the model you're referring to Erin Stear? If you don't know, can you find out?

What hypocrites they are!

I think that Erin Steer was another model whom he got friendly with at this time but it could have been her.

I often wonder why Reeva stuck around with OP keeping on forgiving him. She seems to have only had two long-term relationships (and she was already 29yo) - one of which was emotionally abusive and the other was with a workaholic who did not want children. It seems that she stuck around with all three of the men she has been involved with far too long instead of playing the field and not getting into committed relationships unless they were going to lead somewhere. Surely she must have heard of OP's reputation on the grapevine and on twitter there were warnings sent to her. I often think that Reeva was in love with love and thought by giving love she would receive love. Romantic love can last up to three years before you see the warts and all. I often wonder just how many dates Reeva had with OP before she died if he was playing the field as there seem to have also been many gaps in those couple of months with time away from each other. Obviously, OP was just stringing Reeva along and she was blinded by love. I feel so sorry for her.

 

[JudgeJudi]

One question about this interview. Mickey said that OP was NOT there with his cousin. He was there with .......? Can anyone please tell me who he said OP was with at the night club?

I'd read previously that he was with a cousin and Guil Yahav, another baddie and the person who introduced OP to Mortimer. On DS forum I just read that the "cousin" was Yahav. As Mikey said OP wasn't with his cousin, this would make sense now I think.

 

[Estelle]

Aimee has just retweeted this:

“@karynmaughan: Important clarification: it wasn't Mikey Schultz who swore at Aimee Pistorius. Allegedly Schultz's friend Mark Strydom”

https://twitter.com/AimeePistorius/status/522786680634605568

Who is Mark Strydom?

Mark Strydom is, according to legal sources, on parole after serving time for attempted murder and assault.

At one point Mr Schultz and Mr Strydom sat, unexpectedly, on the bench reserved for the Pistorius family, and according to the defendant's brother Carl, Mr Schultz mouthed an obscenity at his sister Aimee, leaving her in tears. Mr Schultz told me later that he'd done no such thing but agreed with Mr Strydom and Mr Batchelor that, in his opinion, Oscar Pistorius was "a murderer" who was "getting off lightly".

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-29635480

I wonder why Mikey Schultz was blamed in the first place?

 

[Estelle]

https://witsjusticeproject.files.wo...orius-hearing-today_16-october-2014-final.pdf