Trial Discussion Thread #58 - 14.17.10, Day 47 ~ sentencing~

[LemonMousse]

I understood that Nel refused to accept any plea/deal from OP.

Yes, but I mean something different.

In the UK the CPS could refuse to accept a plea of manslaughter (which, if they did, would mean no trial, straight to sentencing) and press on with murder...but the defendant could still plead guilty to manslaughter in court.

A plea bargain is different. If Nel had accepted a plea bargain of CH, there'd have been no trial (except the sentencing aspect) because OP would have pleaded guilty.

But if the State had still insisted he answer a charge of premed, OP could have plead not guilty to that, but guilty to CH instead.

 

[LemonMousse]

Thank you LM. I have read on a number of occasions that even if Nel appeals that the sentence cannot be changed, only the judgement. If a sentence anywhere near 10 years is given I am sure Pistorius will want to appeal but I understand if he does he runs the risk of a murder conviction being imposed and the sentence then can be changed. Is that correct?

That's my understanding, yes.

But I am no expert!!

 

[mrjitty]

What to make of fact Judge asked how long Nel wants?

Normal.

In the sentencing submissions I am used to, the prosecution generally reviews similar cases over the years, and explains in what range or what ball park it sees the current case

 

[Deleted member 102539]

http://thejuice.co.za/top-stories/news-just-in-oscar-pistorius-will-be-sentenced-on-tuesday/

Oscar Pistorius will be sentenced on Tuesday

Both parties delivered emotionally charged arguments. State prosecutor Gerrie Nel told the court that it was the court’s responsibility to ensure that what happened to the family of Reeva Steenkamp doesn’t happen to anyone else.

Barry Roux urged the court to treat Oscar with the spirit of the African principal uBuntu. “It is that permanent excruciating pain is that it’s you that caused the death of a loved one. It is you. That will never go away. Whatever punishment… lifelong, 15 years, 10 years, correctional supervision… it can never be equated to that pain,” Barry told the court.

 

[zoran]

I watched it live; I heard what he said.

When the judge asks the prosecutor what he feels an acceptable sentence is, "minimum 10 years" is not the same as saying "15 years." Nel argued premeditated murder the entire trial. He should have said the only acceptable sentence is the maximum allowable for the lesser charge he was convicted of.

MOO

He is to clever for that. He can see it a mile off that any time at all will be a bonus. Going for 10 and getting 5 will be a big win at this stage. I think everyone around the world will accept 5, perhaps begrudgingly

 

[LemonMousse]

I like this guy's tweets but can't see the logic in this one. Not saying he's not possibly right about no prison time but don't see why delivering the verdict next Tuesday supports that hunch. If anything I'd have thought it would take longer to work out the details of house arrest etc.

David Dadic @DavidDadic · 10m 10 minutes ago
Given that she's delivering on Tuesday,which is pretty soon considering the past,I find it difficult to believe shes giving a jail term. IMO

I saw that...makes no sense to me either.

 

[mrjitty]

That's my understanding, yes.

But I am no expert!!

I find it unlikely that a suspended sentence could stand if the conviction were changed to murder.

Indeed we just saw Jub Jub downgraded for Murder to CH and his sentence changed from 25yrs to 8.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/pistorius-not-a-cold/1421050.html?cid=FBINT

Pistorius not a 'cold-blooded killer', argues defence

Pistorius wept in the dock as his lawyer Barry Roux said he had already suffered enough for killing his model girlfriend, describing the Paralympian gold medallist's devastating fall from disabled icon and sporting stardom to a loathed criminal.

"He's lost everything, he was an icon in the eyes of South Africa," said Roux in his final argument on the sentence Pistorius should serve for shooting Reeva Steenkamp on Valentine's Day last year. Roux says Pistorius had also lost the woman he loved, "most of his friends" and "all of his immovable properties".

"He was denigrated to the extent that all that was left was a rage killer, a cold-blooded killer, and everything that was horrible," said Roux, describing 27-year-old Pistorius as a "victim" of unprecedented malicious media attention. The sensational trial has been broadcast live around the world.

 

[LemonMousse]

My impression of both advocates this morning...

Roux: Oily, ingratiating, dripping with faux sincerity

Nel: Somewhat astonished that he even finds himself in the position of having to point out the blinking obvious...that this was a VERY severe crime and justice would not be served by making Pistorius stay home for a few years. And he wanted Reeva and her family at the forefront of everyone's thoughts.

I have often defended Roux as being a good advocate doing what he's paid to do. But some of his arguments are downright offensive, quite honestly.

Glad his windbag sidekick hasn't been there this week, though.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

That's my understanding, yes.

But I am no expert!!

It seems shocking to think that if the PT appeal and are successful there will be no change to the sentence when murder has a minimum sentence requirement .

 

[Deleted member 102539]

cnn.com/2014/10/17/world/africa/south-africa-pistorius-sentencing/index.html?utm_source

Final arguments before Oscar Pistorius sentencing

(CNN) -- Lawyers painted opposing pictures of South African athlete Oscar Pistorius in their final arguments Friday before his sentencing -- one side depicting him as a broken man who's suffered enough, while the other said he must pay for taking his girlfriend's life.

Pistorius, 27, is due to be sentenced for culpable homicide, or negligent killing, as well as one weapons-related charge, after a hearing lasting several days.

After both sides' final arguments concluded Friday, Masipa said the court would reconvene Tuesday for sentencing.

Defense lawyer Barry Roux appealed to the judge to remember that he reacted as a vulnerable disabled man when he shot Reeva Steenkamp dead.

 

[ColonelMustard]

I'm obviously no legal expert but in the UK if there's part of the sentence suspended, there are usually conditions applied and if they breach those conditions they can be whisked back into jail. Given OP's penchant for speeding, firing guns and generally his lack of giving a toss about human life - you can be pretty certain he'll offend again so I think a long suspension would be beneficial to the SA public as he'd more than likely end up serving a full sentence at some point. I just hope it's not at the cost of anybody else's life.

Oh, I get it. Thanks SO much!!

Knowing that, I don't think he deserves ANYTHING suspended.

HARD time for him!

 

[mrjitty]

My impression of both advocates this morning...

Roux: Oily, ingratiating, dripping with faux sincerity

Nel: Somewhat astonished that he even finds himself in the position of having to point out the blinking obvious...that this was a VERY severe crime and justice would not be served by making Pistorius stay home for a few years. And he wanted Reeva and her family at the forefront of everyone's thoughts.

I have often defended Roux as being a good advocate doing what he's paid to do. But some of his arguments are downright offensive, quite honestly.

Glad his windbag sidekick hasn't been there this week, though.

Masipa has allowed Roux to turn the court into a circus with some of his absurd witnesses.

Weak judge who has shown herself unable to maintain standards - especially as to the introduction of hearsay and bogus evidence

 

[mrjitty]

It seems shocking to think that if the PT appeal and are successful there will be no change to the sentence when murder has a minimum sentence requirement .

Yes exactly.

 

[soozieqtips]

http://www.ngtrends.com/2014/10/we-will-take-care-of-you-prisoners-tells-oscar-pistorius/

“People here are lovers not haters,” one prisoner told The Times. “All Mr Pistorius need do is associate himself with positive people.”

If imprisoned by Judge Thokozile Masipa, Pistorius is likely to live in a single cell in the prison’s hospital wing, acting national commissioner for correctional services Zach Modise testified in court yesterday.

Several prisoners serving time at Kgosi Mampuru II yesterday said that Pistorius’s fears about his wellbeing in prison were unwarranted.

One prisoner, serving 15 years for armed robbery and speaking on condition of anonymity, said: “It is his fame that will give him his protection … that and whatever money he has to buy . the necessaries. Bartering in prison is the game … cigarettes and money. If you have or can get them, then you are fine,” he said.

He said the advice of prisoners – who had been watching the trial on mobile satellite-TV devices – was that Pistorius should associate with the “right people”.

“Associate with the right people, the lovers: those who see a future for themselves outside prison. Your protection through your fame is a definite. Everyone knows you.

“Pistorius will have people who clean and wash for him, do things for him,” he said.

A home from home, if you will.

 

[LemonMousse]

It seems shocking to think that if the PT appeal and are successful there will be no change to the sentence when murder has a minimum sentence requirement .

No, no...that's a myth, I think. Judge Greenland accidentally implied that there would be no change of sentence, but then clarified that when people queried it.

A change of verdict could well mean a change of sentence.

 

[LemonMousse]

I am all over the shop here....

IB - I misread your initial post to me. Really, really sorry.

A change of verdict COULD mean a change of sentence.

Apologies for any confusion. Up very early this morning!

 

[newone]

I am all over the shop here....

IB - I misread your initial post to me. Really, really sorry.

A change of verdict COULD mean a change of sentence.

Apologies for any confusion. Up very early this morning!

so whatever happens Tuesday -- could be good.....IF he's given straight community time, PT could appeal as well right?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

A home from home, if you will.

Always little Frankies for service ... and for don't hear and don't see ...! :smile:

 

[soozieqtips]

It doesn't matter what Roux says about how there can be no pain more devastating than that of causing the death of a loved one, or how whatever punishment OP gets can't be worse than what he's already suffered. It's his job to try and keep him out of jail. His words are utterly meaningless as far as I'm concerned.

We've all seen OP in action, living life normally, getting into brawls, getting a new girlfriend months after killing Reeva, and so on, and so on, and so on. Actions really do speak louder than words, and OP's actions have shown how shallow and unrepentant he is about what he did. I hope Masipa at least takes that into account when deciding if a touch of dusting and staying at home is really a suitable punishment for taking Reeva's life away so brutally.