Trial Discussion Thread #6 - 14.03.13-14, Day 9-10

[james83]

Can somebody please confirm, what defines premeditated in a court of law?

i.e. if OP flew into a jealous rage and during a heated 10 minute period shot RS, does that still fit the criteria for premeditated, even though it wasn't a planned murder as such?

As i understand it and please someone correct me if i'm wrong.
If he had only fired one shot and killed her- murder
The fact that he fired more than once -Premeditated murder

 

[soozieqtips]

IME, very often these types of relationships are extremely intense too - the controlling/possessive/abusive party works to secure the relationship as quickly as possible. Quite deliberately.

JMO

I've been in that kind of intense relationship, and what I learned was that nothing you do is good enough. There's always 'more' you could do to please the other party. I remember one guy making his displeasure very clear when I used to wear leggings (back in my 20s!). He complained they were too clingy and that guys looked at me when I wore them. Well, I wasn't going to let him dictate what I wore, so I carried on wearing them, and he said quite threateningly: "But you know I don't like you wearing them, so why are you trying to make me angry?"

Thank God that was years ago and I don't have anything to do with guys like that anymore, but when I read about OP being annoyed with Reeva for wearing a ponytail or talking to a waiter for too long... I related to that because I've been with guys who have OP's intensity and control issues. It is NO fun to be in that kind of relationship at ALL. And yes, my guy had serious anger issues too. I think it goes hand in hand with the needing to be in control thing and not liking it when someone doesn't adhere to the 'rules'. Control makes them feel more secure.

 

[Cherwell]

Can somebody please confirm, what defines premeditated in a court of law?

i.e. if OP flew into a jealous rage and during a heated 10 minute period shot RS, does that still fit the criteria for premeditated, even though it wasn't a planned murder as such?

Yes, it does.

"Premeditated" in this context does not mean "planned". It means that at the moments of killing, the accused intended to kill.

 

[Bobbie Elliott]

I actually believe that it is pretty common for police to destroy their notes after they have been incorporated into their report.

I know that countries and even states within the one country have different rules protocols etc. In Queensland where I live, I'm pretty sure that it's compulsory for police have to keep all notes. This must be the case in many other places. Notes are likely to contain the most accurate and timely information. This also helps ensure that those making the notes do so carefully and thoroughly.

 

[Harmony 2]

Peeps, two new threads are open for discussion... this one is getting long and will be closing in 10 minutes... Remember we have a whole forum now and new topical threads can be created to discuss theories or evidence in depth.


New weekend discussion thread:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237992

New topical thread:
'The doors' - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

The cricket bat photos are very irritating .. I directly focus on lots of blood mostly existing on the lower part as if hit on the head..Why is all that blood only on that part? İt doesnt appear to be spatters or drops either..

 

[steveml]

AFFIDAVIT

I felt trapped as my bedroom door was locked and I have limited mobility on my stumps.

I seem to have overlooked information that this door was locked. Is this the same bedroom door that you would exit to reach the bathroom?

I battled to get her out of the toilet and pulled her into the bathroom. I phoned Johan Stander ("Stander") who was involved in the administration of the estate and asked him to phone the ambulance.

I don't really buy this explanation. I can understand the nature of phoning the estate security in certain situations as the chances are that they will be there quicker than the police - this is fairly commonplace I believe. What I don't understand is why you would phone them first when you need an ambulance. Surely there would be no quicker way than phoning paramedics directly when you have a dying person in your arms?

 

[anagrammy]

I agree.

I think OP would have everyone believe that his & Reeva's relationship was much more serious than it actually was. I mean - they'd only been dating for a few months. How serious could it have possibly been? I wonder if he perceived the relationship as more serious than Reeva did and this was a point of conflict between them? If not, I think his claims about the seriousness of their relationship are designed for persuasion: he'd never purposely kill someone he was deeply in love with.

Then there's the matter of his sister requesting to take one of the watches. I'm assuming she didn't just come up with this request on her own - OP must have asked her to go fetch it.

He had just killed the woman he claimed was "the love of his life". WTH was so important about a watch, of all things, at such a horrendous time???

It was on his mind for a reason...hmmm. What if Reeva, like any woman, was upset with Pistorius because he did not have a gift for her for Valentine's Day. Here she was, considered by many to be one of the most desirable women in SA. Certainly it would be humiliating to have your new boyfriend fail to acknowledge your relationship on the one day of the year when women expect something special when a girlfriend later asks, "So, Reeva what did you and Oscar do for Valentine's?.

Thinking fast, Oscar offers one of his expensive watches. Reeva, naturally, is incensed and an argument ensues. "Are you kidding me?" she throws it on the bed. "I don't want one of your obsolete watches."

"It's brand new and it's worth 80K, you idiot," he follows her into the guest bedroom. "Aren't we sleeping in my room?" he asks.

"You are. I am too tired to drive home, so I am going to stay over, but I just want a good night's sleep after all this bickering."

"WHAT THE F*CK!" He slams the door and goes to bed alone, searching used cars and beating off to phone , grumbling under his breath.

He gets up later, goes into the kitchen. She gets up and wanders over the master bedroom thinking to make up and sees the phone. . Other women texting. Him sexting back - and OMG one of them is a 15 year old!

Pistorius comes back in and she says, "Well, I'm really getting to know you fast this way" and holds up the . He grabs for his phone and she taunts him, "So now you want to bone a teenager, do you? Wonder what your worldwide fan base will think once they see this." He freaks

He lunges for the phone - has already taken off his legs - and tries to bat it out of her hands. He hits her between the fingers, she runs, taking the phone with her plus her own. "I'm calling the police!" she screams, "You can't hit a woman! Are you mad?" He chases her swatting at her with the bat, causing the scratches. She takes refuge in the toilet.

He smacks the door then realizes he needs his legs - goes and gets them plus the gun. She is screaming for help and help might come. He has to shut her up or he is through as an Olympic athlete hero-god and everyone will know he hit her and he tried to screw a child. She must die or his own life is over.

As he pulls out his gun, he thinks, "I'm defending myself here. It's her or me."

And you know the rest.


Anagrammy

 

[soozieqtips]

I seem to have overlooked information that this door was locked. Is this the same bedroom door that you would exit to reach the bathroom?



I don't really buy this explanation. I can understand the nature of phoning the estate security in certain situations as the chances are that they will be there quicker than the police - this is fairly commonplace I believe. What I don't understand is why you would phone them first when you need an ambulance. Surely there would be no quicker way than phoning paramedics directly when you have a dying person in your arms?

I think he knew the shot to the head had already killed her, and the whole 'died in my arms' on the stairs was a lie. He'd have had no need for an ambulance if he knew she was already dead when he took her out of the toilet.

 

[james83]

If i can go back to the fact that Oscar was allegedly on his stumps and not as he claimed on his prothesis when he used the bat to break down the toilet door.
Can anyone think of a reason why he would lie about this?, i can't figure out a reason why he would lie about it, doesn't seem to change much.

 

[Schuby]

Can somebody please confirm, what defines premeditated in a court of law?

i.e. if OP flew into a jealous rage and during a heated 10 minute period shot RS, does that still fit the criteria for premeditated, even though it wasn't a planned murder as such?

In the US premeditation, legally, can be formed in an instant (personally I don't get this as being meaningfully distinct from 2nd degree murder, but, not my call), but that doesn't matter here. What matters is how it is defined under SA law.

 

[soozieqtips]

If i can go back to the fact that Oscar was allegedly on his stumps and not as he claimed on his prothesis when he used the bat to break down the toilet door.
Can anyone think of a reason why he would lie about this?, i can't figure out a reason why he would lie about it, doesn't seem to change much.

Well, he said he had 'limited' mobility on his stumps, so saying he put on his prosthetic legs before bashing the toilet door down would indicate (to some) that he was in a rush to get to her, and could get there much faster than on his stumps. But I'm also not sure why it matters. I even think that both the PT and the DT had implied it didn't matter a few months ago, although I could be mistaken. Just glad Roux isn't questioning me about it!

 

[Schuby]

If i can go back to the fact that Oscar was allegedly on his stumps and not as he claimed on his prothesis when he used the bat to break down the toilet door.
Can anyone think of a reason why he would lie about this?, i can't figure out a reason why he would lie about it, doesn't seem to change much.

Good question. I have been wondering the same.

Maybe he felt it incriminating to say he put his prosthetics on after he saw the extent of her injury (rather than tending exclusively to her)?

 

[Harmony 2]

Peeps, two new threads are open for discussion... this one is getting long and is now closed... Remember we have a whole forum now and new topical threads can be created to discuss theories or evidence in depth.


New weekend discussion thread:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237992

New topical thread:
'The doors' - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community