Trial Discussion Thread #7 weekend thread

[lisasalinger]

Just a clarification for anybody asking questions about the contents of both Oscar's and Reeva's cell phones (including whether or not he was watching porn)... that evidence has not been presented at trial yet. We have no idea what is on those phones.

Any reports about "nothing" being found are just speculation in the media at this point.

 

[Really?]

Just a clarification for anybody asking questions about the contents of both Oscar's and Reeva's cell phones (including whether or not he was watching porn)... that evidence has not been presented at trial yet. We have no idea what is on those phones.

Any reports about "nothing" being found are just speculation in the media at this point.

Good point, thank you.

 

[minor4th]

What time does Colonel Van R say he arrived at Oscar's house?

 

[minor4th]

And also, if anyone knows when Botha and when Van R made their written reports?

 

[minor4th]

A few minutes into Roux' cross- examination of Col Van Resberg (sp?). My question is why in the world would the police put themselves in this position of exposing what can only be described as corruption and incompetence in the police force? Pursuing these charges of premeditated murder, they had to have known all of this would be revealed to the whole world

 

[Val1]

I agree....not even sure why it is relevant.

I'm guessing relevancy will be determined by what time it was accessed? ie. was he watching and interacting with the app right up until 3:08am or was it earlier in the evening and shut down just before 10pm.

 

[Estelle]

What time does Colonel Van R say he arrived at Oscar's house?

3.45am.

 

[Estelle]

And also, if anyone knows when Botha and when Van R made their written reports?

Van said he made his first one on 16 February, 2013.

 

[Val1]

Sorry if this has already been discussed but I found this info kind of fascinating and wondered what if anything has been made out of it.

So did Baba faint? Did OP faint? Who fainted... also, it appears that it wasn't just the neighbours that heard the last shots, just minutes before OP claimed that "everything was fine".

Then there's the whole thing with RS perhaps coming back unexpectedly to spend the night, is that why and when the arguing that the neighbours had referred to started? Bolding is mine.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/oscar-pistorius/10687022/Oscar-Pistorius-murder-trial-March-7-as-it-happened.html

12.24 Baba says then he saw Pistorius "coming down" Reeva. He then fainted.

12.24 Baba told his colleague that everything was not fine. The estate manager Mr Stander then arrived at Mr Pistorius's house with his daughter. Baba says "i could see on their faces something had happened."

12.22 Baba says he then spoke to Pistorius and pistorius said, "everything is fine". That is when Baba says he realised that Pistorius was crying. He realised that "not everything was in order" despite what Mr Pistorius had said to him. Baba said he tried to speak to Mr Pistorius again to check that everything was ok but the phone call ended. Then Pistorius called him back and cried down the phone. The line went off again.

12.20 Baba sent a buggy to Dr Stipp's house, and by then Dr Stipp was standing on the balcony. At that stage Dr Stipp pointed directly at Mr Pistorius's house. Pistorius's hosue was directly visible from Dr Stipp's house and Baba says the lights in Mr Pistorius's house were on so he immediately drove there.

12.16 Baba says that one of the guards then informed him that he heard rifle shots. Then he received telephone calls from residents including Dr Stipp who also made the report that they had heard gunshots from their neighbours. He said he didn't know which neighbours they were referring to.

12.15 Baba says that two other residents, including witness Estelle van der Merwe, also had their doors open.

12.13 One of my guards on patrol came to inform Baba that Dr Stipp's windows and gate was open so he went to see if everything was ok. He assumed they had left them open as it was hot.

12.12 Pistorius entered the complex a few moments after Reeva, he was on his phone.

12.09 When she came in Baba did not phone Pistorius because Reeva had been at the house already that day. It was alleged that Reeva had some laundry in her car when she left the estate, and she then came back at a later stage.

12.08 Baba says that Reeva enters the complex at 6 pm on February 13 last year. She was alone in the car.

 

[curiousjo]

Just listened to radio show and they suspect defense trying to mislead prosecutor down wrong scenario, lick them in... then play a gotcha on them... Just like Roux messing with the witnesses.

In the end, who cares whether he did this with or without prosthetics - he lied about being in bed and never mentioned the 1 hour argument heard by the neighbors! RV was awake - not in bed! That does it for me.

 

[Estelle]

A few minutes into Roux' cross- examination of Col Van Resberg (sp?). My question is why in the world would the police put themselves in this position of exposing what can only be described as corruption and incompetence in the police force? Pursuing these charges of premeditated murder, they had to have known all of this would be revealed to the whole world

That is what I have been thinking too. Why did he have to tell anyone about the forensics guy handling the gun without gloves?

Was it leaked to the Defence?

I would have thought that Nel would have gone over everything to make sure that the police and forensics teams did not show themselves up to be idiots.

There seems to have been a lack of training about how to do this or that and they have just picked things up along the way.

Who was the man in charge of all this? Couldn't he have attended to any weaknesses that they were or Nel have coached them in what to say and how to behave? There seems to have been a lack of management and checking before presentation and nor "rehearsal". Maybe these detectives who have been in these positions for so long are still using outdated methods as that have not updated their skills. The just seem to do it their way and do not give the impression that there was good teamwork.

Why was Botha chosen to give evidence at the Bail Hearing if Van was superior to him? Surely what Botha was going to say should have been checked first.

They do not seem to have any strategy against Roux who uses every tactic in the book but they needed better preparation as the come over to be so unsophisticated.

Also why did the witnesses not keep a copy of their statements so that they could read it over again before the trial? And if they didn't, why didn't Nel send them a copy? How much access can Nel have with the witnesses? It seems unfair that the accused can have all this access to his Defence Team yet some of these witnesses seem to have made their statement a year ago and are expected to remember the fine details a year later.

Maybe I do not know the rules but adequate preparation is very important as well as how to deal with difficult questions.

 

[Estelle]

I'm guessing relevancy will be determined by what time it was accessed? ie. was he watching and interacting with the app right up until 3:08am or was it earlier in the evening and shut down just before 10pm.

Watching porn could reveal many things. One of which would be the type of porn he watched and especially when he was accessing it as if he was doing so after 10pm, he will be proven to be a liar as he said he had fallen asleep.

 

[minor4th]

That is what I have been thinking too. Why did he have to tell anyone about the forensics guy handling the gun without gloves?

Was it leaked to the Defence?

I would have thought that Nel would have gone over everything to make sure that the police and forensics teams did not show themselves up to be idiots.

There seems to have been a lack of training about how to do this or that and they have just picked things up along the way.

Who was the man in charge of all this? Couldn't he have attended to any weaknesses that they were or Nel have coached them in what to say and how to behave? There seems to have been a lack of management and checking before presentation and nor "rehearsal". Maybe these detectives who have been in these positions for so long are still using outdated methods as that have not updated their skills. The just seem to do it their way and do not give the impression that there was good teamwork.

Why was Botha chosen to give evidence at the Bail Hearing if Van was superior to him? Surely what Botha was going to say should have been checked first.

They do not seem to have any strategy against Roux who uses every tactic in the book but they needed better preparation as the come over to be so unsophisticated.

Also why did the witnesses not keep a copy of their statements so that they could read it over again before the trial? And if they didn't, why didn't Nel send them a copy? How much access can Nel have with the witnesses? It seems unfair that the accused can have all this access to his Defence Team yet some of these witnesses seem to have made their statement a year ago and are expected to remember the fine details a year later.

Maybe I do not know the rules but adequate preparation is very important as well as how to deal with difficult questions.

Well, I assume Nel is on the up and up since he has a career of prosecuting corruption cases, including corruption in the police. He has to deal with the evidence and witnesses he is stuck with - and he has to turn over all the information to the defense, so there is really no hiding it or preparing witnesses to avoid it. And "coaching" witnesses is not allowed.

 

[AlwaysShocked]

"Why did he have to tell anyone about the forensics guy handling the gun without gloves?"

Because he knows that that "the cover up is worse than the crime". He has accepted responsibility for a law enforcement screw up. It was deliberately brought up by the Prosecution in order to "take the sting out of it". Better to bring it up and be able to fully explain it on direct exam than to have it first brought up on cross examination.

One of the biggest frustrations of being in a supervisory position has to be the mistakes made by underlings.

 

[minor4th]

"Why did he have to tell anyone about the forensics guy handling the gun without gloves?"

Because he knows that that "the cover up is worse than the crime". He has accepted responsibility for a law enforcement screw up. It was deliberately brought up by the Prosecution in order to "take the sting out of it". Better to bring it up and be able to fully explain it on direct exam than to have it first brought up on cross examination.

One of the biggest frustrations of being in a supervisory position has to be the mistakes made by underlings.

It's really impossible to know at this point because we don't have the full statements of the other officers, but for some reason I kind of think Col Van Resberg was telling the truth for the most part - maybe trying to paint himself in a little better light than is warranted - but true for the most part. I think he is having to explain for some of his wayward police officers, including Botha.

I am wondering if there was a divide in the police department about how aggressively to go after OP. Van Resberg comes across as much more reasonable than Botha, so I wonder if he was more inclined to just follow the evidence and not rush to judgment, whereas Botha was telling him he should arrest OP right away and then Botha went onto misrepresent evidence and manufacture PR outrage against OP.

 

[Estelle]

Sorry if this has already been discussed but I found this info kind of fascinating and wondered what if anything has been made out of it.

So did Baba faint? Did OP faint? Who fainted... also, it appears that it wasn't just the neighbours that heard the last shots, just minutes before OP claimed that "everything was fine".

Then there's the whole thing with RS perhaps coming back unexpectedly to spend the night, is that why and when the arguing that the neighbours had referred to started?

snipped....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rius-murder-trial-March-7-as-it-happened.html

BBM Who fainted. Baba. He lost consciousness for a few minutes as I guess he was shocked.

BBM Wasn't just the neighbours but his guards also heard the gunshots.

BBM RS did not come back unexpectedly. She and OP were going to go out with their same sex friends that night. One of them phoned the other. It is not clear who as OP's fiends said one thing and OP said another. (he said RS phoned him). She had intended to go to a movie with her girlfriend, Sam, and he was intending to go out with the girlfriend's partner, Justin Divaris, a car dealer, and another mate for dinner. They had all been together that afternoon for lunch and then a party at a real estate agent's office.

But RS and OP changed their minds and decided to have a quiet dinner at home. So Reeva went to g gift shop and had her Valentine's gift specially wrapped for her to give to OP before she arrived home. She had no intention of staying that night as she had told the Myers family whom she stayed with that she would be home but changed her mind later telling the Myers that she was too tired to go home. .

Normally, Mr Myers met Reeva half way in his car to make sure she got home safely. Reeva may have been at OP's house on the previous night but it does not mean she stayed the whole night. But records will be shown by security to show her movements if relevant.

BBM Their arguing started at 1.56am according to Estelle Van der Merwe.

 

[minor4th]

Van said he made his first one on 16 February, 2013.

Thank you! Did he testify at the bail hearing?

 

[Estelle]

It's really impossible to know at this point because we don't have the full statements of the other officers, but for some reason I kind of think Col Van Resberg was telling the truth for the most part - maybe trying to paint himself in a little better light than is warranted - but true for the most part. I think he is having to explain for some of his wayward police officers, including Botha.

I am wondering if there was a divide in the police department about how aggressively to go after OP. Van Resberg comes across as much more reasonable than Botha, so I wonder if he was more inclined to just follow the evidence and not rush to judgment, whereas Botha was telling him he should arrest OP right away and then Botha went onto misrepresent evidence and manufacture PR outrage against OP.

When Van Rensberg said he loves sport and is now a sports coach, I think he, like many others, could not believe what Oscar could have done and wanted to make sure that he was objective. But Botha started to accuse OP as he had had previous experience with OP over that past assault in 2009 when he had arrested him.

I guess they did not want OP to have access to his house so he could tamper with the crime scene. I know they arrested OP on 14 February but I have forgotten when they actually charged him.

 

[Estelle]

Thank you! Did he testify at the bail hearing?

No Van did not testify at the Bail Hearing and that is what confuses me. Why was Botha chosen?

 

[minor4th]

When Van Rensberg said he loves sport, I think he, like many others, could not believe it and was objective. But Botha started to accuse OP as he had had previous experience with OP over that past assault in 2009 when he had arrested him.

But I ask again, why was Botha chosen to give evidence at the Bail Hearing when Van was senior to him?

Maybe because Botha was willing to give more emotional and speculative testimony that Van Rensberg.