Trial Discussion Thread #7 weekend thread

[Estelle]

http://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-control/southafrica.php

It looks as if OP will never get a gun licence ever again!

 

[weeeva]

The thing that I have trouble with whenever it is suggested that he tried to stage the scene in the bedroom somehow is that if he were thinking about and plotting "how to get away with it," why wouldn't he have refused admittance to the doctor and security that night?

Yes. Everything seemed to happen so quickly according to the witnesses. OP only had minutes from the time the shots, screams and cricket bat were heard, to construct a plausible story and alter the crime scene. That is why I am willing to give OP the benefit of the doubt at present. I seem to be the only person I know who wants him to be innocent. I don't want him to get away with it. I want him to be innocent. Does anyone out there agree with me?

 

[zwiebel]

Photo of OP. Taken in the garage, I think. Look at the metal pole he's leaning against - I'm sure he'll have left a mix of Reeva's blood and his DNA on that. Seems really crazy that he was moved about the house that way.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...lattered-in-blood-shown-in-court-9192174.html

 

[curiousjo]

The doctor mentioned seeing bathroom light on after final round of shots- but he never mentioned bedroom light turned on! Just that he heard yelling from part of home located to left of bathroom. When OP couldn't find RV in bed- wouldn't he have turned on ALL lights to look for her and shouted her name loudly?

 

[zwiebel]

Yes. Everything seemed to happen so quickly according to the witnesses. OP only had minutes from the time the shots, screams and cricket bat were heard, to construct a plausible story and alter the crime scene. That is why I am willing to give OP the benefit of the doubt at present. I seem to be the only person I know who wants him to be innocent. I don't want him to get away with it. I want him to be innocent. Does anyone out there agree with me?

I don't think even Oscar himself does, I'm afraid. He doesn't say he's innocent. He admits he shot Reeva four times. Innocence is long gone in this case I think. It's all about degrees of guilt now.

 

[Estelle]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_criminal_law#Mental_incapacity

For those who are interested in the law in South Africa.

 

[zwiebel]

http://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-control/southafrica.php

It looks as if OP will never get a gun licence ever again!

Lol, I was ploughing through that site last night, trying to see if they have trial transcripts anywhere. No luck though, not for current trials.

 

[Really?]

http://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-control/southafrica.php

It looks as if OP will never get a gun licence ever again!

Wee there is a relief......his gun skills were seriously lacking:scared:

 

[zwiebel]

Pistorius trial: a nation of competing realities

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-26594202

ETA: 5 yr backlog of toxicology reports. Ouch.

 

[Pisto_lius]

Once more something about the timeline (I think it’s very important)


* Pieter Baba said: When he (and Jacob) arrived at OP's house he saw OP carried Reeva downstairs. He saw Johan + Clarice Stander in the house.....

Dr Stipp wasn't there at this time (so he arrived minutes later)...

* Dr Stipp said: At the same time he arrived at OP's house Johan + Clarice Stander also arrived (in a black Mini Cooper)..... OP knelt beside Reeva's body….

* Clarice Stander said: She (and her father) arrived at the house at exactly 03:20 (she gave a sworn statement to police)..... she saw OP carried Reeva downstairs.... when Reeva's body has been placed on the floor in the entrance hall Clarice assisted OP to stopp Reeva's bleedings untill paramedics arrived....

Not a single word about the arrival of Dr Stipp.....

* OP said (in his affidavit): Johan Stander and Dr. Stipp arrived at the same time..... this must have been at 03:20 according to Clarice Stander....

Not a single word about the arrival of Stander's daughter Clarice at the same time....

* Paramedics and first police officers arrived at 03:42 (according estate's CCTV footage)

* van Rensburg said: He arrived at 03:55.... paramedics were there....other police officer were there….. OP was in the kitchen and with him Johann + Clarice Stander....

* OP's sister Aimee also was in the house when van Rensburg arrived..... it was reported that she came together with OP's father Henke....

OP also called his father and asked him to come to his house...... OP was carrying her body downstairs when his father and his sister Aimee arrived, the City Press reports.....

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205154&page=1

* OP called friend Justin Divaris at 03:55..... Clarice Stander took the phone and explained J. Divaris what happened....

Justin Divaris:
"Oscar called me at 3.55am saying that Reeva had been shot. I said to him, 'What are you talking about? I don't understand you.' He then repeated himself – 'There has been a terrible accident, I shot Reeva," Justin Divaris told the Sunday People.

"Next thing his neighbour picked up the phone and told me it was true and told me to get to Oscar's home. I was in total shock. I asked the neighbour, 'Is she OK?' Did the gun go off by accident?' She replied, 'No. She's not OK. You need to get here'."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...et-bat-found-at-Paralympic-athletes-home.html

* OP's coach Peet Van Zyl also was called by Clarice Stander (at 04:00 by OP's phone) according to an interview given by Van Zyl.... it's unknown at what time he arrived.....

* Further police officers arrived at around 04:00 (confirmed by van Rensburg)....

* Hilton Botha arrived at 04:15.... meanwhile OP was separated by police in the garage.... Botha interviewed OP and asked him why he washed his hands and face....

Van Rensburg testified Botha was with him when he (van Rensburg) went upstairs to check the crime scene....

* OP's brother Carl + lawyer Kenny Oldwage were already at the scene when Botha arrived - or minutes later (different reports).... Police called a locksmith to open a safe looking for a memory stick with details of offshort accounts.....

* Justin Divaris + girlfriend Samantha arrived at around 04:30 and confirmed that at this time OP wasn't no longer in the house but separate by police in the garage.....

But J. Divaris could speak with OP as he was in the garage !!!
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[Pisto_lius]

Van Rensburg only mention

- Johan Stander
- Clarice Stander
- Aimee Pistorius
- Paramedics
- Hilton Botha
- other police officers/forensics staff

He didn't mention

1. OP's father Henke
2. OP's brother Carl
3. OP's lawyer Kenny Oldwage
4. the locksmith
5. Justin Divaris
6. Samantha Greyvenstein
7. OP's coach Peet Van Zyl

Has von Rensburg not seen all of these people?.... # 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 were definately at the scene....

But perhaps he didn't mention them in his testimony because he was only asked about the crime scene evidence ?

I'm pretty sure, Nel will tell the court later, who else was in the house and whom OP called at what time....

Until now it's not yet the right time for Nel to clarify a lot of issues.... Why should he use up his powder during the cross-examination by the DT ?

It will be better for the state's case if he do this during his own cross-examination of the defence witnesses instead to argue with Roux about every little point during the cross-examination of the state's witnesses....

 

[Pisto_lius]

OP's gun fairy tail


From OP's affidavit

- I moved backwards out of the bathroom, keeping my eyes on the bathroom entrance….

I assume, still with the gun in his hands which was still cocked and ready for fire.....

- When I reached the bed, I realised that Reeva was not in bed. That is when it dawned on me that it could have been Reeva who was in the toilet….

- I returned to the bathroom calling her name…

Still with the gun in his hands which was still cocked and ready for fire ????.....

- I tried to open the toilet door but it was locked….

Still with the gun in his hands which was still cocked and ready for fire ????.....

- I rushed back into the bedroom and opened the sliding door exiting onto the balcony and screamed for help...

Still with the gun in his hands which was still cocked and ready for fire ????.....

- I put on my prosthetic legs....

This MUST have been the moment he put the gun out of his hand and laid it on the bed !!!

So, WHY the gun was found in the bathroom - still cocked and ready for fire ????

IMO the gun was brought back into the bathroom later. But yet I have no explanation why..... I have to think about this again...

 

[Dmacky]

Pistorius trial: a nation of competing realities

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-26594202

ETA: 5 yr backlog of toxicology reports. Ouch.

Thanks zwiebel. Interesting and quite sad actually.

 

[Pisto_lius]

Some other facts


- When van Rensburg entered the 2nd spare bedroom, he saw signs that someone had been staying in there - a toothbrush/toothpaste, other non-specific signs (he called it visibility) that someone had been using that en suite bedroom.

I assume OP used this bedroom when he went upstairs to wash his hands and face (according to Botha). He couldn't use the crime scene bathroom for this.

--------------------

- Reeva's dead body (over and over with blood and brain tissues) lay on the floor of the entrance hall since about 03:20 till a coroner’s van leaves the Silver Woods estate with her dead body at about 08:35....

* OP's brother Carl
* his sister Aimee
* maybe his father Henke (?)
* Kenny Oldwage
* Johan and Clarice Stander

they all were in the house.... but no one cared about Reeva.... it seems no one was horrified about what happened....

* OP left his dead girlfriend and went upstairs only minutes (or seconds) after Dr Stipp told him there is nothing he could do for Reeva...

* Clarice Stander was busy to search for towels (and for this she went upstairs into the crime scene)....

* OP's brother Carl and lawyer Kenny Oldwage were more interested to get access to documents and an USB stick from a locked safe in the kitchen...

* OP's sister Aimee was worried about OP's watches….

They all do not give a damn about Reeva…. :banghead:



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I'll be back later....
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[Estelle]

Nels then led her (Sam Taylor) through a highly anticipated account of how Pistorius, angry at being stopped by a policeman during a road trip, had fired a shot through the open sunroof of his car.

The incident is crucial to the prosecution case because under South African law they are unable to call character witnesses. Instead, they have cleverly brought two unrelated firearm charges against Pistorius, to be heard as part of the main proceedings. Even if those charges come to nothing, they still plant a picture of an irresponsible man prone to reach for a gun when angry

http://www.news.com.au/world/south-...ius-murder-trial/story-fndir2ev-1226849279052

 

[Dmacky]

Van Rensburg only mention

- Johan Stander
- Clarice Stander
- Aimee Pistorius
- Paramedics
- Hilton Botha
- other police officers/forensics staff

He didn't mention

1. OP's father Henke
2. OP's brother Carl
3. OP's lawyer Kenny Oldwage
4. the locksmith
5. Justin Divaris
6. Samantha Greyvenstein
7. OP's coach Peet Van Zyl

Has von Rensburg not seen all of these people?.... # 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 were definately at the scene....

But perhaps he didn't mention them in his testimony because he was only asked about the crime scene evidence ?

I'm pretty sure, Nel will tell the court later, who else was in the house and whom OP called at what time....

Until now it's not yet the right time for Nel to clarify a lot of issues.... Why should he use up his powder during the cross-examination by the DT ?

It will be better for the state's case if he do this during his own cross-examination of the defence witnesses instead to argue with Roux about every little point during the cross-examination of the state's witnesses....

Thanks Pisto_lius, I had no idea ALL these people where there!
Yet not a single person from Reeva's family even called?????

 

[Really?]

Thanks Pisto_lius, I had no idea ALL these people where there!
Yet not a single person from Reeva's family even called?????

Good point !!!!!....I hadn't thought of that. Thank you

 

[Estelle]

In South Africa, OP could face a maximum of:

25 years: premeditated murder carries a mandatory life sentence
5 years: each gun indictment
5 years: each gun indictment
15 years: firearms charge

50 years: Maximum sentence

I had no idea of the extent of these charges

No mention of illegal possession of ammunition but that could be an extra one

www.cnn.com/2014/03/13/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-trial/

 

[Interested Bystander]

In South Africa, OP could face a maximum of:

25 years: premeditated murder carries a mandatory life sentence
5 years: each gun indictment
5 years: each gun indictment
15 years: firearms charge

50 years: Maximum sentence

I had no idea of the extent of these charges

No mention of illegal possession of ammunition but that could be an extra one

www.cnn.com/2014/03/13/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-trial/

If he were to get those sentences one would expect them to run concurrently. That would be the norm. So he would get 25 years. However, I think he will get a sentence for Culpable Homicide which can be anything up to 15 years as far as I can see and can also be no sentence at all. I think he is guilty of murder but I just don't see it going that way. I hope I am wrong.

The following is worth a quick read but is not anything very deep. Just a view from the other side of the pond.

http://newday.blogs.cnn.com/2014/03...-south-africas-legal-system-in-the-spotlight/

“For premeditated murder, the mandatory sentence in South Africa is a life sentence, which in practice is 25 years unless someone can prove extraordinary circumstances.

Extraordinary circumstances could include a combination of number of factors: for example, that it was a first offense, the age of the person and in Pistorius' case, his disability and the impact this could have had on his actions.”

 

[Estelle]

Please read some of the Bail Hearing again and let us know what you think. This is just some of it.

IMO Botha did a reasonable job but he said too much and some of that was wrong. He overestimated the distance to Michelle Burger's house and assumed the herbal remedy was steroids. He should have measured the distance or said it was just a long way away and said he did not yet know what was in the many boxes he found but it was being tested. If he wanted to mention steroids, he could have said they could be steroids or medication, etc.

worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/20/17026594-oscar-pistorius-in-court-defense-exposes-cracks-in-police-evidence?lite

All Botha had was a few days to find enough evidence to stop OP getting bail. I am not a Botha apologist, but just imagine his task. I guess Van needed a rest after working 24 hours straight so had little time so Botha was given the task.