Trial Discussion Thread #7 weekend thread

[wishIknewmore]

Thanks for the link but my background is medical and I am very aware of personality disorders. Disorder was perhaps the incorrect word to use. My point leans more to whether or not his behaviour was different from that expected from a "normal person". I am sure you will have read about the possibility that Roux could claim that OP's judgement, due to his physical condition, may be impaired. It is this I am referring to.

I personally don't think OP has a disorder but I do think Roux is desperate and may throw something to this effect in his argument.

I'm sincerely interested in why you think he doesn't have a personality disorder. I have 2 people in my life who are on the extreme side of Narcissistic tendencies but only 1 being clinically diagnosed. I see quite a few things that lead me to believe that OP might have N tendencies. I'll be happy to list them but also realize that I'm not qualified to make a diagnosis. Why do you rule it out?

 

[nastasya]

I agree that some people just want to ignore all logic, but I am not one of them. As far as I can see there has been no proof that he knew it was Reeva behind that door. He also did not know that he wasn't in imminent danger, if he thought it was a burglar.

Testimony that OP knew it was RS behind the door:

• 4 witnesses heard a female screaming.
• Witnesses testified they heard both male and female screaming.
• Witnesses heard male and female voices at the same time, intermingled.
• Woman found dead in OP's house.

Was it just a coincidence that witnesses mistakenly heard a woman's voice screaming and later a woman was found dead?

Was it just a coincidence that those same witnesses heard gunshots and yes, that woman found dead was killed by 4 gunshots that supposedly those witnesses didn't hear?

Proof OP knew he wasn't in danger:

• Phone call with security saying either "everything's fine" or "I'm fine."
• Not calling police at any time, either before or after the killing.
• Not searching the house when seconds before the killing OP said he believed his life was in danger.
• Returning to the bedroom with his back to the bathroom, opening the doors, with his back to the room, and screaming for help before he knew if there was still an intruder in the house.
• Going to bed with doors open.
• Leaving fans outside. If neighborhood was so dangerous, why have fans outside to begin with?

OP's story is that he went to bed with RS, and that hearing somebody in the toilet area of his bathroom caused enough fear and panic to shoot four bullets through the toilet door. His story continues that he did not see RS in bed after TWICE yelling to her to call the police.

According to OP, simply not seeing RS in bed after twice yelling to her to call police was enough to vanquish his fears of an intruder(s) being in his house. Suddenly, not seeing RS in bed made the intruder(s) he feared in his mind disappear.

This is evidence that the fear was fabricated to begin with. Seeing his bed mate not in bed only seconds after believing somebody was threatening his life does not change the circumstances that allegedly caused his fear in the first place. Shooting in the dark at the toilet door solved nothing in his original scenario that allegedly caused his fear. The intruder could have been hiding in the shower with a gun based on OP's version of why he allegedly feared for his life.

More to the point, there is no proof OP was ever in a state of fear in the first place. He admitted shooting RS through a closed toilet door inside his bathroom, inside a locked bedroom area that where he described that he himself felt trapped, even though he had a key to open the door. He also admitted to closing the windows and shutters of the bedroom so it would be impossible to see what was going on inside the bedroom, and would lessen the chance of anybody hearing what was going on inside the bedroom.

That's prima facie evidence for first degree murder. In a prima facie murder case the burden of proof shifts to the defendant.

It's illegal to shoot an unarmed person he invited into his own home simply because he heard a window open and somebody using the toilet.

Now OP must present proof that he believed his life was threatened, and that it was reasonable for him to believe his life was threatened. It's not up to the state to prove OP's state of mind. OP is an admitted killer. It's now up to OP to prove his actions were justified.

Other than his own version of events, there is no proof that he feared for his life. In fact, the evidence shows the opposite. He moved into the room where he claimed to perceive potential danger multiple times. He didn't look in the shower. The bathroom was dark. He didn't clear the room or the bedroom. He didn't even check his bedroom door to see if it was still locked or if RS left to go downstairs when she heard him yell to call the police.

Bottom line is OP admitted to shooting RS four times and killing her. A non-existent 3rd person fabricated only in the mind of the killer is not proof of anything.

 

[wishIknewmore]

Van Rensburg got photographer Van Starden to take photos as soon as they arrived, and at that point, all watches were there, there was blood on some of them and also blood on the case they were stored in. Later, Aimee Pistorius went to the bedroom and took one of the watches, this was only done after Van Rensburg made it policy that anyone going up there to remove items were recorded and photographed doing so.

At some point, Van Rensburg either noticed a watch was missing, or he was told a watch was missing. But at no point after Van Rensburg arrived, was any family or friend allowed upstairs, other than Aimee Pistorius and she was watched like a hawk.

Just as well Van Rensburg was up there with the photographer, taking photographic evidence, rather than wasting time asking endless questions to the suspect who had every reason to lie and obfuscate.

Thanks for the info. There were discussions earlier on about how the security guards, police and even judges are known to be corruptible in SA. This can certainly happen anywhere but I was led to believe this happens more frequently there. I'm very concerned about the sloppy police work in this case. OP deserves a fair trial. There are so many standard crime scene protocols broken that I wonder if some of this was not intentional sabotage from the beginning.

What if the stolen watch was actually payment (or downpayment) for someone (I.e. police officer) to mess up the crime scene? I would think that someone would want some sort of payment before risking their job so a watch worth a couple of grand might do the trick. It doesn't say that any of OP's people were searched before leaving. The cop could have removed it, given it to someone (ex OP's brother, lawyer, Stander) to hold until after the search for the missing watch was completed. It then became another convenient example of the crime scene being changed too.

 

[nastasya]

Here is another view of the corner area next to the magazine rack. I read somewhere a few weeks ago the the prosecution believe that RS was standing in that corner. When this photo was displayed in court they pointed out the blood on the wall in that corner.

With bullet wounds on her right side and head, she wasn't sitting on the toilet when she was shot. She may have been behind the toilet hiding if OP was threatening her, saying he had a gun.

Shot to the hip caused her to drop behind toilet. Shots to the arm and head caused her to slump over, possibly face on the toilet, bleeding into the toilet bowl with the upper part of her clothed body resting on the toilet seat. This may be why OP described her as slumped over. Some part of her body had to be above the toilet seat bleeding into the toilet bowl. It wasn't her right hip.

With the reconstructed toilet area in court my guess is we'll see the prosecution re-enact how they believe RS was hiding behind the toilet when she was shot. Defense will say he was hiding because she heard OP warn her that an intruder was in the house.

 

[Harmony 2]

Good morning! New topical thread is open... please take a look...

Ballistics, firearms and firearm paraphernalia - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[james83]

Regarding what is "possibly" a bullet hole in OP'S bedroom door, if it is indeed a bullet hole, isn't it likely that there will be damage somewhere on the otherside of the door where the bullet hit? like on a wall possibly?, unless it hit a person that is.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Even if he does have a personality disorder (and I'm not saying he does or does not), if he knows right from wrong (which he surely does), then any other personality disorder or quirk is not a defense, IMO. He knew enough to try and hide what really happened. He knew enough to call in supportive people to assist him, and get his lawyer on the phone right away.

I think he's been coddled, spoiled, and finally treated like royalty because of his athletic accomplishments. He's immature and trigger-happy. But none of those things can or should absolve him of murder.

I don't think a personality disorder would be taken into consideration unless there was clear previous medical history of a very severe problem. Like you I think he is immature, thoroughly spoilt, and has a sense of self importance that he finds difficult to cope with when challenged.

 

[canny]

Canny I’ll reply to your comments in post 176 in order posted by you:

IMO Reeva was standing with her right side facing the door very close to the door with her left hand in front of right hand elbow covering her head with both her hands in close proximity to the door in a defensive posture to prevent OP from breaking it open, or something to this effect. He could have been threatening her with the bat or gun. The picture released in court on Friday of the bedroom door with a hole has made me cautious, as there are now five holes in two doors but only four cartridges shells have been found. The holes in the toilet door on my 55 inch screen TV doesn’t look anything other than what I have described in my previous post, if your opinion defers, so be it.

Mine:

It does not take rocket science to realize that if Reeva was shot around her right ear, with exit wound to back of head, and a large pool of blood spatter on the floor and toilet behind her, but very little blood on the walls, that the angle of the bullet was not at a 90 degree angle to the door, but at a fairly acute angle to the door and going downwards!

To demonstrate this, I have made a graphic which I believe shows the approximate position of Reeva around the time she was shot in the head:

bd.jpg

You’re an excellent graphic artist, but I have to point out serious flaws in your sketch.

According to my calculation the key hole and handle on OP’s toilet door are located about 34 inches from the floor, but the four bullet holes are located about a foot and more BELOW the handle. In your sketch you have placed Reeva’s head right in front of the latch and key hole, where there are NO bullet HOLES. The bullet holes are located exactly down below in the region of her HIP and not her HEAD. Now, tell me how could she have been struck in the head with the first bullet. Many people are fooled by the low height of the partition in his door and in the process miscalculate the height of the bullet holes in the door.The blood splatter on the bowl and on the floor is only possible if she was hit by the fourth bullet while slumping down to the floor after the first two bullet injuries.

According to me the first bullet struck her in the hip, she started collapsing to the floor when three more bullets were fired. VR had testified that he noticed a wound on middle finger of left hand, and on the right arm above the elbow This indicates that both her hands were in a defensive position covering her head.IMO this was the third bullet that first spilt two fingers on her left hand that was in front of her head and then went on to fracture her bone in her right arm just above the elbow. The fourth and final bullet struck her head. VR confessed that Botha was more knowledgeable in this sort of crime This one sentence speaks volume about his competence and interrogation skills to lead such an investigation and his designation as Colonel or whatever!

Could you please produce the transcript or video clip from You tube where VR asserts that he arrested OP in the Kitchen, because I watched his testimony and cannot remember he ever using the word ‘arrest’ at all.

OP in his first few phone calls hired a lawyer,and was firmly lawyered-up by the time the cops arrived.It was not necessary for Oldwage to be physically present for OP to assert his right to remain silence. All his friends were allowed to speak to OP even when he was held in the garage, the guard at the door failed in his duty to guard the suspect. lol

It is common knowledge at all suspects are allowed to hand over all evidence that could incriminate them in any way possible to their attorney for safe keeping and the lawyer can proceed with what is in the best interest of his client. All conversations between attorney and client are confidential for eternity, unless revoked by mutual consent. Roux had no option but to handle over his phone as they are adamant that Reeva’s killing was an accident and is not possible for the Sate to manipulate the contents of his phone to gain any advantage from it in any court of law.

It is common knowledge that the defense forensic team cannot access the crime scene unless and until the State has thoroughly completed its job, this misconception that the cart can be put before the horse should be entertained with a pinch of salt. VR suspected OP for murder, therefore any conversation he engaged with the prime suspect can under no circumstance be referred to as mere ‘chats’. Any information cleverly extracted or lies blurted out by the suspect can be used in the State to gain a conviction, but poor VR with his two eyes, hands and legs was busy running around doing house keeping and not investigation. All he had to do was seal of the whole house and evict everyone not present during the shooting excluding his attorney.. Stop shooting blanks, no police official or prosecutor can force or request any murder suspect to under a polygraph test at the crime scene or any where under the sun. The police photographer is part of the forensic team and not an separate individual as you portray.


I was referring to Clarice Stander, the blanket lady she happens to be a qualified attorney and not Oldwage hired to defend him. For all legal purposes OP had the right to sit on his Oldwage’s lap and go to sleep and let him submit written statements to the prosecution on his behalf. First produce concrete evidence that VR arrested OP and put him under guard in the garage then I will be willing continue the debate on this fallacious argument. I don’t have to keep spoon feeding anybody with basic FACTS that suspects arrested for murder are legally prevented from engaging in friendly emotional chats with any person other than their attorney’s without the consent of the prosecutor or court approval and he has to submit his statement to the police. A man claims he accidentally shot dead his girlfriend in the toilet with four bullets fired through his toilet door in the early hours of Valentine’s day ( can you feel the love) this is sufficient probable cause for the State to arrest him on the spot for murder, produce him before a judge and take it from there. They did not have to submit any more evidence to the court for the judge to accept the charge, sanction a through investigation by the State and ensure speedy trial, given the high rate of violent crimes against women in SA.


Roux is an intelligent articulate attorney doing an excellent job of defending his client who has been charged with premeditated murder. He is truly fighting for his client’s life and using all fair means approved by the court to defend OP to the best of his ability. All accused are innocent unless proven guilty in a court of law, if anyone brands Roux a fool without logic and reasoning, it reflecting poorly on their knowledge about how the court system functions. So called popular opinions don’t make or break murder trial cases. Sound Judgements are delivered by judges only after a thorough examination of all evidence placed before the court by the prosecution and defense. All prosecutors will embrace with open arms all LIES made by the prime suspect accused of murder, anyone who thinks the police will be wasting their time on this critical point should seek legal advice before god forbid they have the misfortune of being questioned by the police in any criminal investiagtion.

You can produce any number of idiotic certificates of merit in VR's favor from the Internet and none in Botha's, but VR praised Botha for his years of experience and knowledge regarding such murder investigations during his testimony on Friday. I rest my case.

 

[wishIknewmore]

A few minutes into Roux' cross- examination of Col Van Resberg (sp?). My question is why in the world would the police put themselves in this position of exposing what can only be described as corruption and incompetence in the police force? Pursuing these charges of premeditated murder, they had to have known all of this would be revealed to the whole world

Bribes?

 

[wishIknewmore]

Wait--Stander and his daughter didn't arrived at 3.17. That was the time of the 2nd set of sounds. According to OP's phone logs, he called Stander at 3.19.

It's posted on the timeline that Clarise said she and her father, Stander, arrived at 3:20. I find this hard to believe. Even in an emergency, how a man receive a call in the middle of the night, wake up his daughter, get halfway dressed and both arrive on the scene within 1 minute? Even if they lived just down the street, that's pretty fast. This is one of those "maybe their clock was off" type things? Can someone please clarify?

 

[canny]

Regarding what is "possibly" a bullet hole in OP'S bedroom door, if it is indeed a bullet hole, isn't it likely that there will be damage somewhere on the otherside of the door where the bullet hit? like on a wall possibly?, unless it hit a person that is.

If it really is a bullet hole then it had to have missed Reeva, because I doubt she would have been able to walk leave alone run to the toilet after being struck with even one of these Mushroom bullets.So far nobody has mentioned anything regarding any blood splatter found on the outside/inside of the door or handles.

 

[Feynman]

My point is that if I remember correctly, Roux had made a big deal of it that OP was sleeping on the right side of the bed because of his shoulder injury(during his cross with the ex-gf) and if true, then there's no excuse in the world to explain why he didn't notice RS wasn't in bed when he went to grab his gun from the holster from the left side.

According to his affidavit, OP was sleeping on the LEFT side of the bed, with his gun on the floor nearby.

 

[foxbluff]

The one thing I can't comprehend in his fear of an intruder coming through the bathroom window is this. The bathroom window faces his backyard, where his 2 dogs are. One of those dogs is a pit-bull, I also have a pit-bull & although loving & playful with his owners if anyone was to enter our property there is no way I wouldn't be aware of it. Their bark is aggressive & frightening, this dog would have barked very aggressively had there been an intruder on his property.

BBM - Yikes! This is the first mention I've heard of dogs!

Now, naturally, I'm wondering if any of the neighbors reported hearing the dogs barking or, under questioning, said they didn't hear dogs!?!?

 

[Really?]

Testimony that OP knew it was RS behind the door:

• 4 witnesses heard a female screaming.
• Witnesses testified they heard both male and female screaming.
• Witnesses heard male and female voices at the same time, intermingled.
• Woman found dead in OP's house.

Was it just a coincidence that witnesses mistakenly heard a woman's voice screaming and later a woman was found dead?

Was it just a coincidence that those same witnesses heard gunshots and yes, that woman found dead was killed by 4 gunshots that supposedly those witnesses didn't hear?

Proof OP knew he wasn't in danger:

• Phone call with security saying either "everything's fine" or "I'm fine."
• Not calling police at any time, either before or after the killing.
• Not searching the house when seconds before the killing OP said he believed his life was in danger.
• Returning to the bedroom with his back to the bathroom, opening the doors, with his back to the room, and screaming for help before he knew if there was still an intruder in the house.
• Going to bed with doors open.
• Leaving fans outside. If neighborhood was so dangerous, why have fans outside to begin with?

OP's story is that he went to bed with RS, and that hearing somebody in the toilet area of his bathroom caused enough fear and panic to shoot four bullets through the toilet door. His story continues that he did not see RS in bed after TWICE yelling to her to call the police.

According to OP, simply not seeing RS in bed after twice yelling to her to call police was enough to vanquish his fears of an intruder(s) being in his house. Suddenly, not seeing RS in bed made the intruder(s) he feared in his mind disappear.

This is evidence that the fear was fabricated to begin with. Seeing his bed mate not in bed only seconds after believing somebody was threatening his life does not change the circumstances that allegedly caused his fear in the first place. Shooting in the dark at the toilet door solved nothing in his original scenario that allegedly caused his fear. The intruder could have been hiding in the shower with a gun based on OP's version of why he allegedly feared for his life.

More to the point, there is no proof OP was ever in a state of fear in the first place. He admitted shooting RS through a closed toilet door inside his bathroom, inside a locked bedroom area that where he described that he himself felt trapped, even though he had a key to open the door. He also admitted to closing the windows and shutters of the bedroom so it would be impossible to see what was going on inside the bedroom, and would lessen the chance of anybody hearing what was going on inside the bedroom.

That's prima facie evidence for first degree murder. In a prima facie murder case the burden of proof shifts to the defendant.

It's illegal to shoot an unarmed person he invited into his own home simply because he heard a window open and somebody using the toilet.

Now OP must present proof that he believed his life was threatened, and that it was reasonable for him to believe his life was threatened. It's not up to the state to prove OP's state of mind. OP is an admitted killer. It's now up to OP to prove his actions were justified.

Other than his own version of events, there is no proof that he feared for his life. In fact, the evidence shows the opposite. He moved into the room where he claimed to perceive potential danger multiple times. He didn't look in the shower. The bathroom was dark. He didn't clear the room or the bedroom. He didn't even check his bedroom door to see if it was still locked or if RS left to go downstairs when she heard him yell to call the police.

Bottom line is OP admitted to shooting RS four times and killing her. A non-existent 3rd person fabricated only in the mind of the killer is not proof of anything.

:good post:

 

[Interested Bystander]

I'm sincerely interested in why you think he doesn't have a personality disorder. I have 2 people in my life who are on the extreme side of Narcissistic tendencies but only 1 being clinically diagnosed. I see quite a few things that lead me to believe that OP might have N tendencies. I'll be happy to list them but also realize that I'm not qualified to make a diagnosis. Why do you rule it out?

I think he has some narcissistic tendencies but I think we would have heard a great deal more about them if they were bad enough to be diagnosed as Narcissistic Personality Disorder. In fact the World Health Organisation doesn't recognise this disorder but the American Psychiatric Association does.

In fact I think he fits better into the Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder spectrum but, again, I don't think we have heard and definitely do not know enough about him to label him. It would take a Psychiatrist to do that.

I feel he is the product of being spoilt (due to his disability) and encouraged to think he can do/expect anything and when things don't go his way he has an explosive and uncontrollable temper. However, to be labelled with a Personality Disorder he would need to be like this much of the time. We don't have enough evidence to be able to say this is the case. I therefore err on the side of caution.


Reading around the subject:-

http://apps.who.int/classifications/icd10/browse/2010/en#/F60.3

F60.3Emotionally unstable personality disorder
Definition
Personality disorder characterized by a definite tendency to act impulsively and without consideration of the consequences; the mood is unpredictable and capricious. There is a liability to outbursts of emotion and an incapacity to control the behavioural explosions. There is a tendency to quarrelsome behaviour and to conflicts with others, especially when impulsive acts are thwarted or censored. Two types may be distinguished: the impulsive type, characterized predominantly by emotional instability and lack of impulse control, and the borderline type, characterized in addition by disturbances in self-image, aims, and internal preferences, by chronic feelings of emptiness, by intense and unstable interpersonal relationships, and by a tendency to self-destructive behaviour, including suicide gestures and attempts.


Narcissistic Personality Disorder - Diagnostic Criteria, American Psychiatric Association

An individual diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder needs to show at least 5 of the following criteria:
•Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements).
•Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love.
•Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions).
•Requires excessive admiration.
•Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations.
•Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends.
•Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others.
•Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her.
•Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.

 

[TorisMom003]

No, he hears the sliding window in the BATHROOM opening (and he can say he heard this after the fans were in, blinds closed, etc)

He can say anything he wants, since he is the only living person from the house from that night. Doesn't mean that what he is saying is true though. He is a man that is on trial for murder after all.

MOO

 

[wishIknewmore]

I didn't mean Rensberg was the first person on the scene merely the first on the scene between him and Botha, i.e. the first to arrive from the police investigation team. As you note there were many people already at the scene when he arrived, going from the estate security and the management with his family, the good neighbour Stipp, a load of OP's family and friends, and finally the paramedics. Quite a crowd to oversee around a murder scene !

First, he knew there was a human behind that closed loo door. And, he knew he had a deadly weapon, fully loaded, in his hand. OP had the advantage right there & then because he could have just as easily exited out his own bedroom door, down the stairs, and outside. He chose not to do that. He made the choice to walk towards the loo and he made the choice to shoot 4 times into a very small/enclosed space.

Next, according to multiple witness testimony, there were loud bloodcurdling (female) screams. Therefore, unless you discount every single witness who has testifed to hearing screams, you have to consider that OP heard screams too. According to his own 'story,' he yelled for the person to "get out." At no point did OP claim to be screaming his head off. He specifically said he used words "get out" and then later, "Help!" None of the witnesses heard that, just loud female screaming and some lower male voice yelling at or near the same time. In addition at least one witness heard arguing for an hour before the shots. Are you discounting their testimony?

Finally, the person in the loo could not "get out." They were in a tiny enclosed locked area and they were trapped in there since OP was on the other side of the door pointing a loaded gun and shooting that gun 4 times (per his own statement). There was no intruder. According to the laws of the state OP was required to retreat if he could. And yes, he could. He did not and chose to kill the human in the loo. That's homicide at the least.

I have trouble believing OP's story. I do believe he has the right to fair trial. Therefore, I've combined OP's affidavit with our most recent timeline. Let's see how it matches up and if it makes sense. His statements are bolded, italicized, and in quotes. I didn't add most of his times because I thought others might have more information. Do what you will with it.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...o-tragedy.html


COMBINED TIMELINE WITH OP'S AFFIDAVIT :


February 14, 2013


“On the 13th of February 2013 Reeva would have gone out with her friends and I with my friends. Reeva then called me and asked that we rather spend the evening at home. I agreed and we were content to have a quiet dinner together at home.”



6 p.m.- Reeva entered the complex alone in her Mini Cooper.
Pistorius entered the complex shortly thereafter. He was on his phone.

10:00 pm "22h00 on 13 February 2013 we were in our bedroom. She was doing her yoga exercises and I was in bed watching television. My prosthetic legs were off. We were deeply in love and I could not be happier. I know she felt the same way. She had given me a present for Valentine's Day but asked me only to open it the next day.”


Time? “After Reeva finished her yoga exercises she got into bed and we both fell asleep.”


1:56 a.m.- Merwe heard what sounded like a woman's voice on one side of an argument, she heard it on and off for about an hour

Estelle van der Merwe:
Quote:
“I woke up the morning at 1:56am to sounds of someone talking loudly and fighting,’’ she told the court. “It lasted about an hour.’’
http://www.news.com.au/world/africa/...-1226845099657

2:20 a.m.- Baba stated in court that at 2.20 am everything seemed normal during a security check

TIME? 3:10’ish???? “During the early morning hours of 14 February 2013, I woke up, went onto the balcony to bring the fan in and closed the sliding doors, the blinds and the curtains. I heard a noise in the bathroom and realised that someone was in the bathroom.
I felt a sense of terror rushing over me. There are no burglar bars across the bathroom window and I knew that contractors who worked at my house had left the ladders outside. Although I did not have my prosthetic legs on I have mobility on my stumps.
I believed that someone had entered my house. I was too scared to switch a light on.
I grabbed my 9mm pistol from underneath my bed. “

3:00a.m- Burger woken by screams:

Quote:
Michell Burger, a lecturer at the University of Pretoria who lived 170m away on a neighbouring estate to Pistorius, said she was woken at 3am "from a woman's terrible screams".
She said the woman "yelled for help" and then she heard a man screaming for help three times, before shots were fired.
She said that there was a gap between the first shot and the next three, describing it as "bang (pause), bang bang bang."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-by-shots.html

TIME? “On my way to the bathroom I screamed words to the effect for him/them to get out of my house and for Reeva to phone the police. It was pitch dark in the bedroom and I thought Reeva was in bed.”

NOTE: OP’s 1st set of screams to intruder and Reeva.”

3:00a.m- Burger woken by screams:

Quote:
Michell Burger, a lecturer at the University of Pretoria who lived 170m away on a neighbouring estate to Pistorius, said she was woken at 3am "from a woman's terrible screams".
She said the woman "yelled for help" and then she heard a man screaming for help three times, before shots were fired.
She said that there was a gap between the first shot and the next three, describing it as "bang (pause), bang bang bang."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-by-shots.html



“I noticed that the bathroom window was open. I realised that the intruder/s was/were in the toilet because the toilet door was closed and I did not see anyone in the bathroom. I heard movement inside the toilet. The toilet is inside the bathroom and has a separate door.
It filled me with horror and fear of an intruder or intruders being inside the toilet. I thought he or they must have entered throug the unprotected window. As I did not have my prosthetic legs on and felt extremely vulnerable, I knew I had to protect Reeva and myself. I believed that when the intruder/s came out of the toilet we would be in grave danger. I felt trapped as my bedroom door was locked and I have limited mobility on my stumps. “

TIME? (3:15???) “I fired shots at the toilet door and shouted to Reeva to phone the police. She did not respond and I moved backwards out of the bathroom, keeping my eyes on the bathroom entrance. Everything was pitch dark in the bedroom and I was still too scared to switch on a light. Reeva was not responding.”

NOTE: OP shouted to Reeva for 2nd time to call the police.

*3:00 - 3:15 a.m. -Stipp was woken up by 3 "shots" and got up and went to balcony to see where it was coming from

TIME? “When I reached the bed, I realised that Reeva was not in bed. That is when it dawned on me that it could have been Reeva who was in the toilet. I returned to the bathroom calling her name. I tried to open the toilet door but it was locked."

Note : Calling Reeva’s name (perhaps shouting?)

3:15:51 a.m.- Dr Stipp made a call at 3:15:51 am and spoke with Baba for 16 seconds. Stipp reported the shots and asked security to come and see where the shots were coming from. (time verified by phone records reviewed during Stipp's testimony)

TIME? \” I rushed back into the bedroom and opened the sliding door exiting onto the balcony and screamed for help. “

Note: OP screaming for help for 3rd time.

*3:15 - 3:16 a.m. - Stipp reports he heard a woman "screaming or yelling" 2 or 3 times

*Burger and Johnson awoke to the sounds of loud screams they identified as coming from a female

*3:15- 3:16 a.m. - Burger and Johnson report they heard yelling "help, help, help" yelled by a male and a female

TIME? “I put on my prosthetic legs, ran back to the bathroom and tried to kick the toilet door open. I think I must then have turned on the lights. “


3:16 a.m.- - Johnson calls security

Quote:
According to Roux, the call Johnson made at 3:16 am on Valentines Day last year to a security company was followed three minutes later by Pistorius's call to his complex's chairperson, Johan Stander.
http://www.sabc.co.za/news/f1/79d469...utiny-20140306


TIME/: “I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door. Reeva was slumped over but alive.”


*3:17 a.m. – Stipp heard "2 or 3" additional "shots"

*3:17 a.m. Burger and Johnson heard "3 or 4" sounds they believe to be gunshots

NOTE: This would be the bat shots according to Roux.

*After 3:17 a.m. - Merwe heard "loud crying" that she initially thought was a woman, but her husband identified the voice as Oscar Pistorius

NOTE: This would be OP crying out because he shot his "baba".

TIME? “I battled to get her out of the toilet and pulled her into the bathroom.”

TIME? “I phoned Johan Stander ("Stander") who was involved in the administration of the estate and asked him to phone the ambulance. “


3:19 a.m. - Oscar calls Stander:

Quote:
According to Roux, the call Johnson made at 3:16 am on Valentines Day last year to a security company was followed three minutes later by Pistorius's call to his complex's chairperson, Johan Stander.
http://www.sabc.co.za/news/f1/79d469...utiny-20140306’

TIME: “I phoned Netcare and asked for help. “


*3:20 a.m. - Oscar calls Netcare and reports that they advised him to take Reeva to the hospital and not wait for the ambulance

TIME? “I went downstairs to open the front door.”



3:21:33 AM - Oscar calls security mobile phone, Baba answers; call lasts 9 seconds, only crying is heard (evidenced by phone records reviewed in court)

3:22:05 AM - Baba called Oscar who said "I'm Ok" or "Security, everything is fine" (there is a discrepancy between Baba's initial written report and his court testimony) - time of the phone call is evidenced by phone records reviewed in court


TIME? “I returned to the bathroom and picked Reeva up as I had been told not to wait for the paramedics, but to take her to hospital. I carried her downstairs in order to take her to the hospital. ”

TIME? “On my way down Stander arrived. A doctor who lives in the complex also arrived. Downstairs, I tried to render the assistance to Reeva that I could, but she died in my arms.”


3:24 -3:26 a.m. Baba arrives at Stander's house and by 3:26, Baba, Stipp and Stander are all present at Oscar's house (Baba claims he called Oscar at 3:24 outside Oscar's house, but the phone records reviewed in court indicate differently)

Quote:
Baba sent a buggy to Dr Stipp's house, and by then Dr Stipp was standing on the balcony. At that stage Dr Stipp pointed directly at Mr Pistorius's house. Pistorius's house was directly visible from Dr Stipp's house and Baba says the lights in Mr Pistorius's house were on so he immediately drove there.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-happened.html

Quote:
Stipp arrived and said Pistorius had his fingers in Steenkamp's mouth in an attempt to revive her breathing but it soon became clear that she was "mortally" wounded.
http://www.sabc.co.za/news/f1/439cce...-body-20140306

3:27 a.m. - Stipp's phone dialed security but no connection is made (According to Roux, while reviewing the phone records in court with Stipp) [My theory - this was an accidental dial when Stander took Stipp's phone, maybe he accidentally hit "redial" before he called the ambulance]

*3:28 a.m. - Both Stander and Stipp are at Oscar's house; Stander calls ambulance from Stipp's phone

3:42 a.m.- Ambulance arrives; Col Van Resberg arrived shortly after

4:15 a.m.- Botha arrives

Other sources:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-happened.html

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/new...-1226845099657

 

[canny]

Wait--Stander and his daughter didn't arrived at 3.17. That was the time of the 2nd set of sounds. According to OP's phone logs, he called Stander at 3.19.

It's posted on the timeline that Clarise said she and her father, Stander, arrived at 3:20. I find this hard to believe. Even in an emergency, how a man receive a call in the middle of the night, wake up his daughter, get halfway dressed and both arrive on the scene within 1 minute? Even if they lived just down the street, that's pretty fast. This is one of those "maybe their clock was off" type things? Can someone please clarify?

Rensberg did refer to Stander as Oscar's friend during his testimony on Friday.Was it not the duty of Stander the Security Chief, and his lawyer daughter to inform Oscar that first he had to inform the police?

 

[foxbluff]

He can say anything he wants, since he is the only living person from the house from that night. Doesn't mean that what he is saying is true though. He is a man that is on trial for murder after all.

MOO

BBM - That is so sadly true, isn't it?

You know, since he was so security conscious, I'm surprised he didn't have security cameras throughout his home. Too bad he didn't, IMO.

 

[weeeva]

Why didnt he look to see if she was still in bed before he fired into the toilet?

He had to go under neath the bed to grab his gun. Wouldn't that have been a convenient time to check if his girlfriend was in bed or in the bathroom going pee?

Yes, that sounds reasonable for us to say that now after the fact, but if someone is in a blind panic they don't behave in a reasonable manner.