Trial Discussion weekend Thread #18

[Feynman]

excerpted quote:

Yes....and if he was going to sleep on the other side of the bed, he would take the gun with him. That would be consistent with a fear of intruders.

My thinking is the questioning would be:

Nel: When you switched your sleeping side of the bed, why didn't you move the gun also?
OP: I had a beautiful woman in my bed and the gun slipped my mind.
Nel: Then how did you forget she was there when you heard a noise in the loo and put four bullets through the door to hit the person inside?

Oscar cannot even claim he was groggy from sleep, because he had just been awake enough to bring fans in, close doors, and close curtains.

But the gun *was*moved to the side where OP was sleeping.

 

[Coldpizza]

FYI all, when you post a picture you need to add a link as it's a copyright violation. Please go back and edit your posts or send one of the mods a link. If neither of the two options are done the post will need to be removed.

:tyou:

 

[steveml]

Precisely .. this is why methinks that the lady doeth protesteth to mucheth ..! :jail:

That looks like a man in a baseball cap wiping a leaded window. He'll need a stronger punishment than that :smile:

 

[Duchy]

Yes, you're absolutely right .. (it's probably a totally different house, too! :facepalm::blushing: ) I can't seem to find any pix which confirms the side is blocked in, though. I think it's just the angle of the one of the side table which makes it appear that the side is blocked in, but I'm not sure it actually is?

I can't find any photos either except the one with the bedside table and it may be dark floor tiles or something. :banghead:

 

[patCee]

That makes sense, yep, once the door is unlocked it can only move in the direction towards the loo.

If the tiles came off under stress, that could most likely be from a kick (or similar) to the front right, whilst the door was locked.

:thumb:

Although unusual, is it possible that part of each hinge has been fitted under the tiles on the edge of the door. When the door was removed the tiles would need to come off, and where the grouting has fixed they were all pulled off in a line. Same might apply if the hinges were screwed into the tiles.

 

[Gryffindor]

13 hours to go here, in Scotland (08:30 am our time) SA is now only 1 hour ahead after our clocks went forward x

 

[jay-jay]

Although unusual, is it possible that part of each hinge has been fitted under the tiles on the edge of the door. When the door was removed the tiles would need to come off, and where the grouting has fixed they were all pulled off in a line. Same might apply if the hinges were screwed into the tiles.

There is a photo somewhere which shows the door still on, though, with the tiles on the floor partly visible. I think the photo is on lisa's blog, I'm not sure?

 

[Duchy]

11 hours and 29 minutes lol

 

[jay-jay]

Let's just hope all the important people at court are fit and well tomorrow!

 

[Duchy]

Let's just hope all the important people at court are fit and well tomorrow!

lease:lease:lease:lease:lease:lease:lease:lease:lease:lease:

 

[Gryffindor]

11 hours and 29 minutes lol

Hee hee. It's a 9:30 am start in SA, so do you mean 12 hours? X

 

[steveml]

I have not seen anything from any person or media outlet suggesting that OP sat down with a flip chart, stop watch and pen and planned out Reeva's murder. I really don't think that anybody has.

My use of the word pre-meditated in respect of this killing does not mean months of preparation, but a deliberate act.

Now I was trying to find some definitions regarding SA law and found a very interesting article which (for me at least) sets things out far more clearly than anything else I have found to date.

I think the difference around pre-meditation comes from a real difference in interpretation between some US states and the way things are viewed in SA. I would have gone with the US states (which is probably unprecedented in my lifetime!) in viewing the deliberate going and fetching of the gun as premeditation. It appears that in SA there has to be more deliberate planning for pre-meditated murder.

However, there are then some definitions of murder (as opposed to culpable homicide) near the end of the article, which seem more appropriate for OP. The classification of murder into pre-meditated, the three listed types of murder intent and culpable homicide will affect the length of sentence.

Anyway, some of you may like to have a read. The article starts off by describing the points made during an on air 'animated discussion' between two US attorneys about whether it could be pre-meditated murder or not.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfac...grace-talks-oscar-pistorious-trial-could-pre/




My view at this point would be that OP is guilty of murder rather than culpable homicide and that Dolus eventualis best fits the apparent circumstances.

I would hope that when considering whether culpable homicide is a suitable verdict, common sense wins through. That is after all the judgement which is supposed to be made:
'how would a reasonable person have reacted'?

So actually, when FMs have been criticised for picking holes in OP's two versions of what happened, they are in effect just doing what the judge and assessors will need to do - look at what OP did and decide if it was credible or reasonable.

Yep, the time taken to quantify an act being done with pre-med can be an instant. It's not a hard and fast rule though, and doesn't tend to be a one cap fits all approach. It's suggested that OP's state of mind will be a major factor for Judge Masipa to determine sentencing. It's anyone's guess as to how he's gonna react on the stand. He could even become aggressive.

I welcome anyone picking holes in OP's versions, that's good. If a theory or suggestion receives comment it's only an opinion and never intended to be a criticism.
I have to swat comments off like flies sometimes, but it's usually all harmless and good-natured at the end of the day.

 

[Feynman]

http://www.livescience.com/27547-testis-compositum-pistorius.html

Roux better hope that "known to increase aggression" is erroneous.

Testis Compositum is some kind homeopathic "remedy". Nothing to see here folks, literally.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Botha, the chief pathologist in Free State province,
did not take part in the postmortem on 29-year-old Steenkamp but is likely to raise questions over the evidence of the state pathologist Professor Gert Saayman.

If he wasn't even at the postmortem, is he going to interpret the results based on another pathologist's testimony and not his own?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/06/oscar-pistorius-trial-resumes-pathologist

Thanks for the info. I had read the other day that he did attend but I think you are right. I would tend to think that he will comment on the more arguable aspects of the postmortem, ie food in stomach, whether anyone can scream after a headshot. If he was not at the post mortem he will not be able to answer questions. Maybe that was a clever ruse by Roux. I think I read the Reggie Perumal was broadly in agreement with the state's report. I think videos of the incident should not be allowed. OP should be made to relive what happened and give his version. Too easy to get someone else to tell the story.

 

[Rumpole]

Let's just hope all the important people at court are fit and well tomorrow!

Amen to that.

Has anybody seen it announced that the assessor who was taken ill will be OK to continue?

 

[strydohj]

I read somewhere yesterday that the toilet door opened inwards so perhaps not the same with the tiles would result from slamming?

I saw pictures where it appear to open to the outside. Wordpress Juror#13 I think.

 

[DebinGA]

Botha, the chief pathologist in Free State province,
did not take part in the postmortem on 29-year-old Steenkamp but is likely to raise questions over the evidence of the state pathologist Professor Gert Saayman.

If he wasn't even at the postmortem, is he going to interpret the results based on another pathologist's testimony and not his own?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/06/oscar-pistorius-trial-resumes-pathologist

This part at the end is a stumper:

"Dr Brian Watermeyer, a clinical psychologist and disability rights activist, told the paper that the rights of disabled people were violated daily and it was therefore not unreasonable for them to perceive the world as "potentially dangerous and potentially hostile".
South Africa has "spent quite a lot of energy thinking about racial inequality and about gender inequality, but as a society we haven't started thinking about disability prejudices at all", Watermeyer said."

Huh? I doubt disabled folks want to be seen as more apt to shoot a stranger dead through a closed door than the abled are.

 

[steveml]

I would love to know whether the defence pathologist that actually attended will also give evidence at some point . If not that is a big red flag to me but maybe it could be explained tomorrow .

I'd expect so Gb. Even if it's only to clarify the margin of error possible regarding the time of Reeva's last meal.

Roux touched on this, but they'll probably want to push the point further.

 

[steveml]

Amen to that.

Has anybody seen it announced that the assessor who was taken ill will be OK to continue?

Not seen anything. They do like for us to all get settled before such announcements in SA.





...I'll have some tea ready just in case.

 

[Duchy]

Hee hee. It's a 9:30 am start in SA, so do you mean 12 hours? X

Lol!:tantrum: