Trial Discussion weekend Thread #18

[Gbtaketwo]

I would imagine his legal team pleaded with him to plead guilty to those charges.

You would think so . I think he will rue the day he didn't take their advice if they did .
Seems to me he has shot himself in the foot here .

 

[james83]

You would think so . I think he will rue the day he didn't take their advice if they did .
Seems to me he has shot himself in the foot here .

Well at least he didn't feel it.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Thanks :tyou:

I for one am in part playing "devils advocate", but I am also interested in seeing the judicial process work as it should for all out sakes. The "Presumption of Innocence" is the "Golden Thread that runs through British Justice" as my namesake Rumpole of the Bailey opines

I do appreciate that forum discussion does not always have to adhere to that. People are often interested in discussing "what if......." regardless of any basis in fact, but in a court of law it should be about "What is", or at the the very least "What might well be" with evidence and an argument to prove it.

I REALLY do think that if you CAN manage to look at things with a presumption of innocence, and require proof before believing, then you would see this case (and other cases) very differently.

I am not "on Oscar's side".... I don't know the guy at all. I am not certain he is telling the truth, but I am certain that the State has not proved he is lying.....yet.

I am not uncaring about Reeva's death, although I didn't know her either. I can though imagine the sadness that any death causes for friends and family.
My guess (FWIW) is that her family would want to know (with some certainty) if OP shot her intentionally, and see him punished for it. But if he didn't do that, then they would NOT want to see a man punished in error for that aspect. Especially a man who was (perhaps) somebody who Reeva loved, and who loved Reeva in return.

I am from the UK as well.
Just out of interest have you looked closely at the difference between the SA Law and UK law on this ?
There does seem to be differences which I don't fully understand ,particularly when it is OK to discharge your firearm and what is regarded as premeditation or do you think they are virtually the same ?

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Well at least he didn't feel it.

Lol yes but he might yet

 

[Rumpole]

A general point that has occurred to me skimming through the last several pages to catch up.

If the State really DID want to make a serious issue out of the 4 text arguments indicating some sort "verbal abuse" on OP's part, and present that as part of an argument that OP was generally abusive towards women (his partners) and further he was likely to be physically abusive etc... to the point of him being likely to attack and murder a partner. It is a HUGE stretch on very flimsy evidence as it stands and to make those connections they would need an "expert" on abuse, battered women etc. Quite likely somebody like Alyce La Violette!! How did that work out in the JA case? Do we really want to go there?!!!! That would be countered by experts on Defrence side, and I put it to you it would become a farce... with dueling psychobabble!! :banghead:

Nel has NOT introduced any expert to comment on the psychological implications of the "argument texts". He is just throwing that snippet of evidence against the wall and hoping something sticks.

 

[steveml]

I keep mulling this over and over as to what difference it makes . As the room was supposed to be in total darkness it would mean he would need to feel around under the bed rather than look and see it in which case as he was on his stumps it would mean he would probably have needed to rest his arm on the bed to steady himself .
I totally believe he has this in for a reason but am just not 100% sure at the moment why although it maybe that what you say above is what OP believes is what people will think and therefore think it helps his statement

It probably doesn't make much difference to be honest. If the judge feels that OP should have been aware of Reeva, she won't give this too much thought.

It doesn't appear to be an unusual place. First page of Google search included under the bed as an option...

http://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-399734.html

 

[DebinGA]

Pic of different OP gun in bin beside bed in 2010:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-first-picture-blade-1724074

 

[Rumpole]

In an earlier post, you said something about starting off feeling 50/50 about his innocence, and now about 75/25. May I ask what comprises the 25% guilt feeling?

The 50/50 and 75/25 refer to my believing that he thought there was an intruder.
50/50 really meaning I had no idea if he was telling the truth or not. I had only read headlines and the odd thing before the trial.

The reason I am a little more inclined to believe him is NOT based on any one thing... it is based on the "Gestalt" of what has been presented in court. Generally the scenario I piece together taking all the testimony together agrees with what OP says happened. One small, though important factoid for me is OP saying within minutes that he thought there was an intruder... in shock with no time to make up a story I tend to give that considerable weight. Not that he could not have made that up in a flash, but it is unlikely he did.
As far as the 25% remaining... I am simply reluctant to believe anything without proof. I still have general doubt. OP could be lying. I would say though that the State do not look like proving that, and so should get past that and start presenting a case in regards shooting an intruder (as OP genuinely thought)

The general point is... I have only heard the State case..if they had made their case I should be 75 % the other way... and even THAT is not "Beyond Reasonable doubt" I don't know if you can assign a percentage, but I imagine 99% sure would be about it? The State are not even close to that.

 

[james83]

Pic of different OP gun in bin beside bed in 2010:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-first-picture-blade-1724074

So judging by that he kept all his personal items there when he went to sleep at night, keys, watch, gun etc, that makes sense to me, hear a noise lean down and grab gun, but under the bed makes no sense at all.

 

[DebinGA]

So judging by that he kept all his personal items there when he went to sleep at night, keys, watch, gun etc, that makes sense to me, hear a noise lean down and grab gun, but under the bed makes no sense at all.

With a platform bed, I don't think there is a reachable "under".

 

[steveml]

Pic of different OP gun in bin beside bed in 2010:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-first-picture-blade-1724074

Yep, I've seen that pic before.

The problem is he would take the gun on and off his body during the day and
only put it under the bed at night. Unless they did the interview whilst he was in bed?

They could have at least given us a colour pic Daily Mirror cutbacks.

 

[DebinGA]

"Oscar Pistorius Faces His Day of Reckoning"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...car-Pistorius-faces-his-day-of-reckoning.html

 

[Rumpole]

I am from the UK as well.
Just out of interest have you looked closely at the difference between the SA Law and UK law on this ?
There does seem to be differences which I don't fully understand ,particularly when it is OK to discharge your firearm and what is regarded as premeditation or do you think they are virtually the same ?

For the record... I am from NZ but UK is my place of birth. My "cyber life" is in USA though :scared:

IANAL that is for sure!! :floorlaugh:

I think in all the jurisdictions that I have followed cases (mainly USA) it would be critical to establish if OP is telling the truth or not. If the State can not prove he is lying they would have to concede that he DID NOT intentionally fire at the door KNOWING Reeva was in there. That then makes the case quite different from what has been charged and what Nel has persisted in putting. Some sort of manslaughter or the equivalent is what should be charged (IMO)... and how that works out is a matter of the details of the law in each country. Some sort of (imagined) self defense is a possibility. I can not comment much further because Nel has not made arguments along those lines at all. If he ever does I am sure Roux will have a good counter argument. I would evaluate both.

 

[Viper]

It probably doesn't make much difference to be honest. If the judge feels that OP should have been aware of Reeva, she won't give this too much thought.

It doesn't appear to be an unusual place. First page of Google search included under the bed as an option...

http://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-399734.html

OMG!!!! OP would absolutely love that website right now. Roux too!!!!

Quote:
In the nightstands on both sides of the bed. My .357 magnum and her .38 special. Into the safe with the long guns when we leave for work. Unloaded 12 GA in hidden the media room with shells stashed nearby, JIC. Once the rugrats come we'll have to buy two of those fingerprint safes for the pistols and move the shotty to the safe.

The 357 magnum was the most powerful handgun in the world! Until some maniac decided to manufacture a 50 caliber one - OP had one of those on order!!! :floorlaugh:

Quote:
I once read an article by Massad Ayoob that at first sounded like a bit of overkill, but was founded in a lot of common sense.

He stated that he had a vest he kept in his bedroom. It contained a firearm and spare magazines, but also things like a flashlight, shooting glasses, etc.

In other words, he thought out the aspects of a late night home invasion, and then without the pressure of an immediate visceral response, calmly chose implements that would help on such an attack.

I think he even made mention of the responding police finding him in pajamas and his handgun vest.

Taken realistically, the idea has merit. I don't think you should sleep with an AK magazine duct taped to your thigh, but a nightstand drawer with necessary items might be a very good idea.

For example, instead of fumbling for a light, a dedicated SureFire E1e with long term storage A123 batteries would sure help. Perhaps a spare pair of your prescription eyeglasses, or a pair of flip-fllops. In other words, think throught the attack.

BIB. That is so cool!!! So OP ish, if you believe his fairy tale.


Edit: Steve in the one comment that you posted from the site they said that they left their gun on the floor next to the bed every night, SAME PLACE EVERY NIGHT, so that they would not have to focus to think on where it was if the awoke and needed it. That sounds familiar from ST testimony that OP ALWAYS placed the gun on his nightstand. Under the bed is just weird, no reason to vary from habit and comfort.

 

[steveml]

OMG!!!! OP would absolutely love that website right now. Roux too!!!!

Quote:
In the nightstands on both sides of the bed. My .357 magnum and her .38 special. Into the safe with the long guns when we leave for work. Unloaded 12 GA in hidden the media room with shells stashed nearby, JIC. Once the rugrats come we'll have to buy two of those fingerprint safes for the pistols and move the shotty to the safe.

The 357 magnum was the most powerful handgun in the world! Until some maniac decided to manufacture a 50 caliber one - OP had one of those on order!!! :floorlaugh:

Quote:
I once read an article by Massad Ayoob that at first sounded like a bit of overkill, but was founded in a lot of common sense.

He stated that he had a vest he kept in his bedroom. It contained a firearm and spare magazines, but also things like a flashlight, shooting glasses, etc.

In other words, he thought out the aspects of a late night home invasion, and then without the pressure of an immediate visceral response, calmly chose implements that would help on such an attack.

I think he even made mention of the responding police finding him in pajamas and his handgun vest.

Taken realistically, the idea has merit. I don't think you should sleep with an AK magazine duct taped to your thigh, but a nightstand drawer with necessary items might be a very good idea.

For example, instead of fumbling for a light, a dedicated SureFire E1e with long term storage A123 batteries would sure help. Perhaps a spare pair of your prescription eyeglasses, or a pair of flip-fllops. In other words, think throught the attack.

BIB. That is so cool!!! So OP ish, if you believe his fairy tale.

Yep, it's certainly an eye-opener when you see how the gun culture is. Not sure I'd fancy duct taping one to my thigh, I move quite a bit in my sleep

 

[lisasalinger]

With a platform bed, I don't think there is a reachable "under".

Looking at the pics, you can see underneath the bed. Plus, I recall now that in testimony it was mentioned that one of the iPads was found under the bed on the right hand side.

The right side of the bed area was pretty sloppy... t-shirt thrown on the floor, iPads on the ground (one under the bed) and it appears that one of the iPad covers may have come off of one of them.

It could mean nothing, just pointing a few things out.

 

[lisasalinger]

I agree, that's how defense lawyers operate.

We have different views on the message evidence but that's fine, we'll agree to disagree.

If there's a big reveal you can tell me I was wrong (as long as there's not too many laughing smilies after it). No point in either of us getting bogged down in this. :smile:






...and if there isn't...I win.

I'm reserving the banana lama just for you!!

:bananalama:

 

[Danta]

No idea, just have this that raises questions for me.

https://twitter.com/MediaSlut/status/328202854500290560/photo/1

On the link above christo menelaou, talks about one ladder that he lent to OP.

I have not been able to find out exactly what kind of ladder it was. There are 6 footers and 12 footers and then the extension type ladder.

The extension type would be the only type of ladder that would reach to a second story.

I did look for a picture of the ladder but no luck so far.

 

[Danta]

I'm quite interested in the ladders .. in his bail application he says: "There are no burglar bars across the bathroom window and I knew that contractors who worked at my house had left the ladders outside."


So, going by that he says it's ladders which were left by contractors, and yet it now appears someone lent him the ladders? .. what type of contractors were these and what type of work were they doing, because I don't know about anyone else, but if ever I have had a contractor in to do any work on the outside of my house that requires a ladder, they bring their own ladders with them.

Strangely enough, he doesn't even mention the ladders in his Plea Explanation .. which is odd, considering how important he seemed to think they were at the time, when his imaginary intruder got into the house through the bathroom window.

I know some ladders were found outside, bu I personally think he has concocted a bit of a story around them (did he even have contractors working on his house at the time?), and then decided to leave it out in his later document.

Good point! If there was one ladder like Christo Menelaou refers to, could it even reach the second story? OP does use the ladder story as a reason that he believed someone could reach the upper story window. I think in different countries it is not referred to as the second story.

It would be the level that you have to go up a flight of stairs to reach.

 

[Cherwell]

On the link above christo menelaou, talks about one ladder that he lent to OP.

I have not been able to find out exactly what kind of ladder it was. There are 6 footers and 12 footers and then the extension type ladder.

The extension type would be the only type of ladder that would reach to a second story.

I did look for a picture of the ladder but no luck so far.

Nowhere does it say there that he lent OP a ladder. The only reference to a ladder is "Perhaps he was angry with me over the ladder".
I've speculated upthread that CM arranged for the builders to work at OP's house, and that he might feel responsible for their carelessness in leaving the ladder(s) there.

If it was an extension ladder, someone might refer to it as ladders plural, because it's in sections.