Trial Discussion weekend Thread #18

[james83]

Debora Patta ‏@Debora_Patta 9h
#OscarTrial Defence also plans on calling neighbour closest to Pistorius who will confirm Oscar's version that he was screaming like a girl

What i don't understand about this is who can confirm that Oscar was screaming like a girl when he was alone when that was happening?, all i can think is by closest neighbour they mean Frank Chiziweni Oscar's live in gardener, does he have his own living quarter's?.

 

[steveml]

Does anyone know how long it usually takes a judge to make a decision in SA?

A couple of investigative correspondents for NBC News suggested that the judge gave general indication of 3 weeks, but said it really is unknown and the judge could go away and take 2 months if necessary. It's in the news link below (you might not want to watch it as most if it just goes back over he case).

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/pi...s-your-questions-oscar-pistorius-trial-n56706

 

[Viper]

Debora Patta ‏@Debora_Patta 9h
#OscarTrial Defence also plans on calling neighbour closest to Pistorius who will confirm Oscar's version that he was screaming like a girl

What i don't understand about this is who can confirm that Oscar was screaming like a girl when he was alone when that was happening?, all i can think is by closest neighbour they mean Frank Chiziweni Oscar's live in gardener, does he have his own living quarter's?.

A live in gardener? Not saying he doesn't have one, but that is funny given that his house has very little landscaping to maintain... Perhaps just a visiting gardener? :smile: I read on the Internet that the live in gardener was out of town that night. :smile:

I also read on the Internet that the maid lived there, likely in the front, lower level to the left if you are looking at the house from the front. Don't know why he had her living in his home either. The expense would be minimal in SA, but it would mean somewhat of a privacy issue in a house that size.

 

[Murphys_Law]

Looking at the pics, you can see underneath the bed. Plus, I recall now that in testimony it was mentioned that one of the iPads was found under the bed on the right hand side.

The right side of the bed area was pretty sloppy... t-shirt thrown on the floor, iPads on the ground (one under the bed) and it appears that one of the iPad covers may have come off of one of them.

It could mean nothing, just pointing a few things out.

while just pointing a few more things out...

Is it the norm in SA to not use a top sheet? ..just a duvet?
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=42568&d=1396730428

I did live in SA for 6 months back in 1993/94 and that certainly was not my experience.

Also, the red strap-like object which appears to have been tossed hastily into the bedroom closet safe has aroused my curiosity. Any ideas on what that, and the white cloth on the left might be? Neither objects seem to be items I would store in a safe.

 

[BritsKate]

I am from the UK as well.
Just out of interest have you looked closely at the difference between the SA Law and UK law on this ?
There does seem to be differences which I don't fully understand ,particularly when it is OK to discharge your firearm and what is regarded as premeditation or do you think they are virtually the same ?

I'm in the UK but from Wisconsin. Brew City baby. :seeya:

Oscar would have grounds to claim self-defence IF someone was lunging at him with weapon in hand. There has to be a clear and immediate threat to your life. Had that happened, he likely wouldn't have been charged. It would have been viewed as a 'lawful' killing.

Obviously, this case doesn't meet that prerequisite. However, he can claim putative self-defence - meaning a person genuinely believed their life was in danger and acted reasonably to avert such an attack. This is a state of mind type of defence so Oscar almost has to testify. If the court agrees with this defence, he cannot be found guilty of murder because murder requires intent.

Intent can be proven three ways - dolus directus - meaning his intent, with premeditation, was to kill Reeva herself; dolus indirectus - he didn't mean to kill Reeva, but she died as a result of his actions; and dolus eventualis - he may not have intended to kill anyone but he foresaw the possibility and proceeded anyway (what could be seen as reckless or negligent homicide). Intention can be formed at the instance of committing a crime - it doesn't require any forethought or planning.

SA law doesn't actually recognise a charge of premeditated homicide - its argued that for a killing to be a murder it always has some level of premeditation anyway. Premeditation is used as an aggravating circumstance in sentencing though. If premeditation is proven then a life sentence hangs in the balance. It's subjective though and based on the circumstances of the crime, to include the accused's state of mind. The fact that he fired 3 shots after the first could even go to the argument of premeditation.

 

[Gryffindor]

A live in gardener? Not saying he doesn't have one, but that is funny given that his house has very little landscaping to maintain... Perhaps just a visiting gardener? :smile: I read on the Internet that the live in gardener was out of town that night. :smile:

I also read on the Internet that the maid lived there, likely in the front, lower level to the left if you are looking at the house from the front. Don't know why he had her living in his home either. The expense would be minimal in SA, but it would mean somewhat of a privacy issue in a house that size.

I posted this tweet of Debora's in earlier pages of this thread and it's his neighbour.

It's an actual neighbour in a separate house. Not sure if it's the one who was awoken to what he considered "claps of thunder"

 

[Gryffindor]

while just pointing a few more things out...

Is it the norm in SA to not use a top sheet? ..just a duvet?
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=42568&d=1396730428

I did live in SA for 6 months back in 1993/94 and that certainly was not my experience.

Also, the red strap-like object which appears to have been tossed hastily into the bedroom closet safe has aroused my curiosity. Any ideas on what that, and the white cloth on the left might be? Neither objects seem to be items I would store in a safe.

Hmm no idea about cloth and red strapping. Oh, what's a top sheet? We have a sheet (covers mattress) and a duvet. I thought that was normal??? Haha

 

[Interested Bystander]

while just pointing a few more things out...

Is it the norm in SA to not use a top sheet? ..just a duvet?
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=42568&d=1396730428

I did live in SA for 6 months back in 1993/94 and that certainly was not my experience.

Also, the red strap-like object which appears to have been tossed hastily into the bedroom closet safe has aroused my curiosity. Any ideas on what that, and the white cloth on the left might be? Neither objects seem to be items I would store in a safe.

The red strap-like objects are the ribbons to his olympic/world championship medals. Difficult to tell which but one could check by looking for medal ceremonies for the events he is known to have won. All medals have the same ribbon for the entire games for all competitors, whether it be Olympics, World, Commonwealth Games etc. If you blow up the photo you can just see a medal attached to one of the ribbons.

Not sure what is in the white bag.


Beijing Olympic Medals were attached to red ribbons

 

[Insp.Dots]

If the judge finds he is guilty of the other firearms charges then surely that proves that he is capable of lying. By not admitting those offences he could have effectively given himself a bad character reference and proved he is capable of trying to cover up a crime ?
There was one opinion to that effect in a link that was posted earlier today .
If this is the case surely it will be bad for his murder charge and whether his version should be believed ?

Yes maybe. I said earlier he may well regret not pleading guilty to those and preventing the bad character references.
I was merely trying to imagine how the defence will dispute all these things.
For example...the ammo, he will say belonged to his father and those bullets do not work with his pistol. They were maybe waiting for his Dad to collect or some tosh.
Then we have the Tasha's incident, not one single person in that 'packed' restaurant reported it to the Police. It still wouldn't be known about today had the PT not gone knocking on doors. DT can again say that gun was Darren Fresco's responsibility, he should have ensured the gun was safe etc etc
Then finally the shot through the sunroof. Again, DF and ST said nothing until this case was brought. Even the Police who stopped him, didn't take proper action.
The supposed jealousy and threats to Marc Batchelor, all fit for that. The charge was dropped against both men.

PLEASE PLEASE don't get me wrong, as I've said I am purely looking at what I see and what the Defence may come back with. The judge will decide on fact not emotion, exactly as she should. NONE of us KNOW the outcome of this trial, we all read differently into things, which is human nature.

 

[Danta]

Nowhere does it say there that he lent OP a ladder. The only reference to a ladder is "Perhaps he was angry with me over the ladder".
I've speculated upthread that CM arranged for the builders to work at OP's house, and that he might feel responsible for their carelessness in leaving the ladder(s) there.

If it was an extension ladder, someone might refer to it as ladders plural, because it's in sections.

On Thread #4 it was discussed that in a VF article it was stated that Christo Menelaou was the person that lent OP the ladder.

I did not find any link to the article itself though so cannot quote it. I just remembered the discussion and between Estelle and Shane 13 so took it as verified.

 

[BritsKate]

Hmm no idea about cloth and red strapping. Oh, what's a top sheet? We have a sheet (covers mattress) and a duvet. I thought that was normal??? Haha

AFAIK, flat as opposed to fitted. Some peeps use fitted, covered by flat, covered by duvet or bedspread. Still hate hospital corners because of those damned sheets.

 

[strydohj]

And she could also match the GPRS connections to the internet history, as well. One of her questions implied she might do just that.

ETA: I think that is exactly what you were saying in regards to "data at that time."

This almost sounded like the judge's attention was directed to something specific on the data (Whatsap, Browing etc) relating to the GPRS connection on the timeline without getting it into the public domain at that point. I wonder what it is and why it was handled so discretely.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Yes can't decide whether it is arrogance and a feeling of invincibility ,stupidity or bad advice . Which ever I think it could be bad for him .

I think he is arrogant AND feels himself invincible. This is what he said when he was arrested on 14th Feb 2013.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-suicidal-reveals-best-1753776#ixzz2y3Liznho
Follow us: @DailyMirror on Twitter | DailyMirror on Facebook


Among the revelations is how Pistorius, 26, showed bravado after he was arrested over the Valentine’s Day shooting and told police: “I’ll survive. I always win.”

It was his response to a senior officer who had warned him: “You could go to jail for a very long time, Oscar.”

 

[Interested Bystander]

I think the fourth message that was not read out in court as it was a little delicate was Reeva and OP discussing where they would have sex, eg kitchen counter, sofa, stairs, etc. I found it via Google somewhere today but cannot track it down now.

 

[steveml]

I'd be inclined to check the wrist of the unnamed Senior Police Officer who sold that line to the newspaper.

Hope he's not been investigating the case

 

[strydohj]

I am following you there with that sequence.. I dismiss the idea that he bought it with him carrying Reeva..

the only other times is the trip to open the door, he may have had his phone still clutched in his hand.. Clarices' little expedition, or the mystery trip.. it puzzles me that he left the gun still loaded ready to fire in the bathroom on that mystery trip.. I figure he didn't go into the bathroom, but then.. maybe to open the window for the story to stick.

My thoughts are that he went to ruffle the duvet cover on the mystery trip to give the impression that they were sleeping in the bed when maybe they have not slept in the bed. That's why cast off blood spatter would be found on the unexposed parts later. He probably had to wash his hands before to not create larger stains. Or do we have other timeline for washing his hand?

 

[strydohj]

Quite a good diagram with simple explanation of the bathroom door findings here...

http://www.scribd.com/doc/212632720/Oscar-Pistorius-What-stories-wood-may-tell

Don't know why but what strikes me from the diagram is that all the panels with bullets holes in was removed...

 

[Val1]

"Oscar Pistorius Faces His Day of Reckoning"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...car-Pistorius-faces-his-day-of-reckoning.html

I suppose the defense could try to argue that RS was indeed the "intruder" if OP had been yelling at her to "get out of my house Reeva!" and then "call the police"... i dare you...

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I'm in the UK but from Wisconsin. Brew City baby. :seeya:

Oscar would have grounds to claim self-defence IF someone was lunging at him with weapon in hand. There has to be a clear and immediate threat to your life. Had that happened, he likely wouldn't have been charged. It would have been viewed as a 'lawful' killing.

Obviously, this case doesn't meet that prerequisite. However, he can claim putative self-defence - meaning a person genuinely believed their life was in danger and acted reasonably to avert such an attack. This is a state of mind type of defence so Oscar almost has to testify. If the court agrees with this defence, he cannot be found guilty of murder because murder requires intent.

Intent can be proven three ways - dolus directus - meaning his intent, with premeditation, was to kill Reeva herself; dolus indirectus - he didn't mean to kill Reeva, but she died as a result of his actions; and dolus eventualis - he may not have intended to kill anyone but he foresaw the possibility and proceeded anyway (what could be seen as reckless or negligent homicide). Intention can be formed at the instance of committing a crime - it doesn't require any forethought or planning.

SA law doesn't actually recognise a charge of premeditated homicide - its argued that for a killing to be a murder it always has some level of premeditation anyway. Premeditation is used as an aggravating circumstance in sentencing though. If premeditation is proven then a life sentence hangs in the balance. It's subjective though and based on the circumstances of the crime, to include the accused's state of mind. The fact that he fired 3 shots after the first could even go to the argument of premeditation.

Thanks so much for taking the time to give such a detailed explanation . I have been trying to get my head around the legal aspects a bit more instead of getting distracted by some of things I have personally found to be implausible about his statement .
I was re reading the indictment again today and keep being drawn to the part where the prosecution basically say it doesn't matter whether he thought it was Reeva or not ie error in persona because it is still murder anyway because he shot to kill a person .
Just out of interest how do you think the prosecution have done so far in the case in establishing the basic murder charge that OP will now need to defend and justify.

:seeya:

 

[Rumpole]

JUST A THOUGHT

Imagine that we could replace the British (and its cousins) Judicial system with...

TRIAL BY FORUM

Would that be good or bad?

Forget presumption of innocence, and rules of evidence. Everything that people can find online is permissible to be considered. Past acts, comments from anybody who knows anything about the Defendant etc. The views of the "victim" and their family given special weight, and not questioned because that would be "bashing the victim"

The final deliberations could be in the form of a Forum Poll... we know how dead accurate they are.

I put it to you that would get a lot of people convicted and given harsh sentences. :jail:

Would that be good or bad? :scared: