Trial Discussion weekend Thread #24

[molly333]

The sound of the wood sections being broken would be loud and possibly are the source of the third set of sounds. Wood makes a very loud "CRACK" sound when it is broken. And the entire upper section of that door was torn out in pieces.

Regarding <modsnip> and testimony that the bullets hit the door before the bat hit the door. He was testifying to "when the bat was used to pry loose the first thin panel." That is one of two separate events related to the bat. And he was correct that the bat came after the one bullet hole because the tear went through that one bullet hole. However, he said it was not scientifically possible to conclude which came first, the two minor bat strikes or the 4 bullets. So two events are distinguished with the bat, first the two strikes to scare Reeva and second the bat being used to pry the thin panel section loose.

I believe that the following is correct:
1) The bat was struck on the door twice to scare Reeva and it was used to strike the bathtub plate very hard - first set of noises
2) The gun fired 4 bullets in to the door - second set of noises
3) The bat was used to pry to slender panel piece loose and then OP took to breaking all of the upper panels of the door - creating loud cracking sounds as he broke them off of the door.

The first three witnesses don't agree with you. They all heard woman screaming [and man] and then 4 gunshots at 3am, after which the woman screamed no more.

 

[TorisMom003]

What kind of additional jail time (if any) does OP face if he is convicted of:

1. discharging a weapon in the restaurant?
2. discharging a weapon through the sun roof of a car?
3. having illegal ammunition

Not sure. I just didn't want you to think that your post was being ignored. It is a very good question though and I hope that someone who knows the answer will let us know.

 

[TorisMom003]

I also saw some posts that were talking about how short OP is without his "legs" on. Saw one that said OP was under 5 feet without them on. This is not true. Although OP himself seems unsure of how tall he is without them on. During testimony he said he was 5 foot something without them on. I think it is important to remember that his legs are amputated well below the knee. The post about him not being able to urinate without his "legs" on, while cute, is simply not true. I believe his height with his legs on is at least 6 feet.

MOO

 

[G.bng]

If you have a strong case, you don't need to continually humiliate someone and call them a liar etc. Your facts will speak for themselves.

Oh well I never... would those facts that speak for themselves be like those known to the whole of the UK but that took 20 years to put the racist perpetrators of the brutal killing of Stephen Lawrence behind bars, and only because the government changed the double jeopardy laws so as to be able to bring two of the killers back to trial for a second time.

 

[molly333]

Air rifle was fitted with a silencer.

If he was going after Reeva instead of a burglar, why didn't he use the air rifle with the silencer? It would draw less attention. People called because of the gunshots, not the woman screaming [go figure].

 

[BritsKate]

Ok, here we go. From your link. The family she was living with told the paper Reeva was planning to come home that night.


Miss Steenkamp did not originally plan to stay with Oscar Pistorius the night she died but changed her mind because it became too late for her to drive home safely, her best friend's father has said.

"I've got this thing with all three children (Reeva, and his daughters, Kim and Gina), if they don't come home at night, they must text me," Mr Myers told South Africa's City Press newspaper.

"Then Reeva sent the (SMS) message: 'Hi guys, I'm too tired. It's too far to drive. I'm sleeping at Oscar's tonight. See you tomorrow'.



So, again, this indicates she was not going to spend the night with Oscar and she was not going to be with Oscar for V-day. She brings his gift the day before V-day, tells him to wait until the next day to open it, and texts her family that she will 'see them tomorrow,' indicating she will be with them, not Oscar.

So what kept her later than expected that night, until it was too late to drive home? If we knew that, we would know what the fight was about. It's not like they got held up at a function or something. But the fact that she does not seem to be spending V-day with Oscar suggests to me that she was telling him to back off, or breaking up with him.

Oscar himself told people after the fact that he was planning to take Reeva to a jewelry store to get a bracelet he picked out for her. Who does that on V-day? Just give her the bracelet over dinner. She can always return it later if she doesn't like it.

Couple of things:

Oscar had something happen that day. IIRC, he describes a hurdle and Reeva tells him she'd understand if he wanted to be with family. We don't know what that was - he testified he had a financial meeting but never went into specifics. Clearly something was already troubling him independent of Reeva.

About the bracelet - without a receipt - I personally think it's a cover story for why he didn't have a gift for her. I don't buy for a second that Reeva meant nearly as much to him as Oscar would have us believe. Him getting her birthday wrong makes it pretty evident apart from everything else we're privy to.

I believe she was more possession to him than ever a person.

JMO

 

[TorisMom003]

If the accused is lying on the stand, that in itself is another charge that can be filed against them. It's called perjury. Before OP took the stand he was sworn in to tell the truth. The fact that he lies on the stand about anything and everything that he is being questioned about can and should be brought up to the court. If one is found to have perjured themselves while on the stand then their entire testimony is suspect and gives the judge/jury reason to question their honesty and testimony.

OP has lied on the stand numerous times now. Nel has called him out on those lies. If OP wants things to go smoother for him on the stand then he does have the option to simply tell the truth. OP himself has the chance to make it so Nel can not call him a liar, say that he is lying, etc.

MOO

 

[Viper]

The first three witnesses don't agree with you. They all heard woman screaming [and man] and then 4 gunshots at 3am, after which the woman screamed no more.

No, the first three witnesses heard loud noises that they perceived as being the sounds of gunshots. None of the witnesses actually saw OP firing the gun so none of the witnesses can say with certainty what each of the three series of noises was caused by - with the exception of Dr. Stipp, he had military experience, so his determination of which sounds were gunshots would be more reliable. I believe that my opinions reflect his testimony.

Remember this fact taken from all of the 5 witnesses testimony: The woman's screams stopped completely after the gunshots.

 

[TorisMom003]

If he was going after Reeva instead of a burglar, why didn't he use the air rifle with the silencer? It would draw less attention. People called because of the gunshots, not the woman screaming [go figure].

An air riffle is not going to kill someone. Some of the witnesses called security because of the combination of a woman screaming AND gunshots.

 

[fox1lady]

If he was going after Reeva instead of a burglar, why didn't he use the air rifle with the silencer? It would draw less attention. People called because of the gunshots, not the woman screaming [go figure].

He didn't have time to think

 

[vansleuths]

Not sure. I just didn't want you to think that your post was being ignored. It is a very good question though and I hope that someone who knows the answer will let us know.

Thank you for acknowledging the post. I do hope someone knows the answer to this, I've been Googling this but haven't found an article that provides a good response. Most just say that in addition to the potential 25 years to life premeditated murder charge, OP also faces three separate gun charges

 

[DebinGA]

I also saw some posts that were talking about how short OP is without his "legs" on. Saw one that said OP was under 5 feet without them on. This is not true. Although OP himself seems unsure of how tall he is without them on. During testimony he said he was 5 foot something without them on. I think it is important to remember that his legs are amputated well below the knee. The post about him not being able to urinate without his "legs" on, while cute, is simply not true. I believe his height with his legs on is at least 6 feet.

MOO

pic of OP with prosthetic off: http://www.runnersworld.co.za/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2012/07/Oscar.jpeg

OP isn't legless; he looks more ankles/feet-less, unless that white-stockinged section is also a prosthetic.

 

[soozieqtips]

Couple of things:

Oscar had something happen that day. IIRC, he describes a hurdle and Reeva tells him she'd understand if he wanted to be with family. We don't know what that was - he testified he had a financial meeting but never went into specifics. Clearly something was already troubling him independent of Reeva.

About the bracelet - without a receipt - I personally think it's a cover story for why he didn't have a gift for her. I don't buy for a second that Reeva meant nearly as much to him as Oscar would have us believe. Him getting her birthday wrong makes it pretty evident apart from everything else we're privy to.

I believe she was more possession to him than ever a person.

JMO

BBM - me too. He said he bought it the month before (I think) and was going to buy her some charms/trinkets to go on it. Where is this jeweller that he purchased the bracelet from? Even if he doesn't have a receipt, I'm sure a jeweller would remember a famous face like OP coming in and buying a bracelet. I was under the impression he didn't actually have the bracelet in his possession, so where is it - still at the jewellers? If that's another lie, surely it could be proved.

 

[TorisMom003]

He didn't have time to think

He uses that a lot when he knows that he did something that can get his arse into a world of trouble. Heck, if we believe him then he never has time to think. He always acts first, thinks second.

MOO

 

[Mr Fossil]

Ok, here we go. From your link. The family she was living with told the paper Reeva was planning to come home that night.


Miss Steenkamp did not originally plan to stay with Oscar Pistorius the night she died but changed her mind because it became too late for her to drive home safely, her best friend's father has said.

"I've got this thing with all three children (Reeva, and his daughters, Kim and Gina), if they don't come home at night, they must text me," Mr Myers told South Africa's City Press newspaper.

"Then Reeva sent the (SMS) message: 'Hi guys, I'm too tired. It's too far to drive. I'm sleeping at Oscar's tonight. See you tomorrow'.



So, again, this indicates she was not going to spend the night with Oscar and she was not going to be with Oscar for V-day. She brings his gift the day before V-day, tells him to wait until the next day to open it, and texts her family that she will 'see them tomorrow,' indicating she will be with them, not Oscar.

So what kept her later than expected that night, until it was too late to drive home? If we knew that, we would know what the fight was about. It's not like they got held up at a function or something. But the fact that she does not seem to be spending V-day with Oscar suggests to me that she was telling him to back off, or breaking up with him.

Oscar himself told people after the fact that he was planning to take Reeva to a jewelry store to get a bracelet he picked out for her. Who does that on V-day? Just give her the bracelet over dinner. She can always return it later if she doesn't like it.

Do we know what time this text was sent and if it was identified in Reeva's phone records?

 

[clearskies1]

Maybe I missed some testimony but I don't remember anything being said so far about whether OP and Reeva had a physical relationship, much less whether there was any discussion about having sex that night. Seems really odd that the topic hasn't come up at all.

 

[jay-jay]

Unfortunately, that conclusion cannot be made.

If that is the case where the defence can just claim crime scene photos are not reliable, then you can be sure that every trial that came up, it would be claimed for some reason or another that the crime scene had been tampered with before taking photos .. and yet they still continue to take photos, so why do you think they bother to do this? The police have no reason to change the crime scene and if anything, seeing as one police officer (who turns out to be a family member) who 'took care' of OP right from the word go, it would be more likely they changed the crime scene to be in his favour and match his story, rather than the reverse.

I saw the way Roux was trying to confuse the court by deliberately mixing up the sequence in which they were taken, and it was so obvious what he was trying to do there .. I very much doubt the judge will be taken in by it .. and at the end of the day, Roux has a job to do, he has to try and confuse because he knows OP's story is a complete fabrication so he has to try and get his client off in some way or another and this just one of the many ways he is trying to do it. It's quite transparent though, the way he is doing it .. the judge won't be fooled.

 

[TorisMom003]

Do we know what time this text was sent and if it was identified in Reeva's phone records?

I believe the text was supposed to have been sent around 10 pm. Not sure if it was in Reeva's phone records according to testimony or not.

 

[soozieqtips]

Do we know what time this text was sent and if it was identified in Reeva's phone records?

It was sent from her phone at approx. 10pm. Her friend Gina said she didn't sign off like she normally did. Maybe OP sent the message from Reeva's phone. We'll never know. But they weren't arguing at 10pm, and if they were, it wasn't loud enough for anyone else to hear. The argument sounds came much later.

 

[molly333]

Couple of things:

Oscar had something happen that day. IIRC, he describes a hurdle and Reeva tells him she'd understand if he wanted to be with family. We don't know what that was - he testified he had a financial meeting but never went into specifics. Clearly something was already troubling him independent of Reeva.

About the bracelet - without a receipt - I personally think it's a cover story for why he didn't have a gift for her. I don't buy for a second that Reeva meant nearly as much to him as Oscar would have us believe. Him getting her birthday wrong makes it pretty evident apart from everything else we're privy to.

I believe she was more possession to him than ever a person.

JMO

yeah, I see mention of the 'hurdle,' but never knew what it was. Had Reeva changed her plans in order to comfort him? For instance, cooking dinner?

I agree it's a cover story. He had nothing for her for V-day because they were not going to be together. Whose decision was that? Her friends in interview all say that was her favorite holiday and she was all about roses and candy and love for that holiday. So, if it was Reeva's decision, which it seems it might be given the gift the day before and not wanting to spend the night with him, I still think she was breaking up with him that night.

Tell us again how dangerous it is to break up with a man who considers you his possession.