Trial Discussion weekend Thread #24

[jay-jay]

My personal favorite is that he heard the 'intruders' because they slammed the toilet door. Really? Intruders slam doors when they break into your home? Why not just break down the front door if they were going to be that noisy, why bother climbing though a window and then slamming a door to alert the residents. Ridiculous.

Agreed, and it was utter foolishness to have introduced the 'slamming' word .. but I doubt very much it was intentional, it was a slip up as to what actually happened that night, as was the 'kicking' of the toilet door when OP slipped up once again when he something about that door not only being slammed but kicked at the same time, as well. OP thinks he has total control over the trial and what he says, but it's not possible and little words like this will keep on slipping out ..

 

[steveml]

Weird theory #1

Reeva and OP fight leading to OP slamming the bedroom door hard in anger (sound 1) and grabbing the gun.

Reeva runs straight to the bathroom and slams the toilet door (sound 2).

OP fires a shot through the door (sound 3) and hits her on the hip.

Reeva starts screaming for help from the toilet.

OP tries to calm her down for 15 minutes and says he is sorry.

Reeva continues to scream.

OP gets frustrated and mad and shoots 3 more times.

I can go along with some of that. It's those doors again though. At a pinch I couldn't rule out the bathroom door making a noise loud enough to travel some distance, as the bathroom window was open. It's the bedroom door that I'd be struggling to believe. This is set much further back in the house, nearer to the patio side. All three bangs were heard by Charl Johnson, he thought these were gunshots, and he lives the furthest away at approx, 177 meters from OP, which is quite some distance. The problem with his testimony is that he claims each set of three were in rapid succession. Quicker than it takes to swing a cricket bat at a door three times.

It's unlikely either Reeva or OP can run that fast.

 

[DebinGA]

Roux and OP did spend a lot of time trying to convince the court that OP is a kind hearted man that rescues animals a brings them to health and happiness, and also, the pitbulls were so severely damaged by their prior inhuman treatment that they were in fact equal to rabbits in their ability to protect and alert their master. :facepalm:

Reminds me OP being interviewed several yrs. ago and out of the blue OP offers a story of him driving through the boonies, hitting a dog, watching it drag itself off road by its front legs only. OP then gets out of his car and walks back to angry dog owner, and, without saying a word to the owner, shoots dog dead, returns to his car, and drives off. This account is from the startled journalist who was interviewing OP for a sports story.

 

[Viper]

Thanks.

A woman screaming for 17 minutes and no police called?

There was arguing heard, the voices of a man and a woman, that began at 3:00, yelling too. Closer to 3:15 the woman's yelling turned to blood curdling screams and a series of 3-4 loud bangs was heard, the screams from the woman stopped. It was then, when the screams and bangs were heard, that neighbors called security.

 

[james83]

I can go along with some of that. It's those doors again though. At a pinch I couldn't rule out the bathroom door making a noise loud enough to travel some distance, as the bathroom window was open. It's the bedroom door that I'd be struggling to believe. This is set much further back in the house, nearer to the patio side. All three bangs were heard by Charl Johnson, he thought these were gunshots, and he lives the furthest away at approx, 177 meters from OP, which is quite some distance. The problem with his testimony is that he claims each set of three were in rapid succession. Quicker than it takes to swing a cricket bat at a door three times.

It's unlikely either Reeva or OP can run that fast.

how do you know what Charl Johnson heard was the actual gunshots and not the other set of sounds?.

 

[steveml]

BIB. I strongly disagree. But if you take as fact that OP murdered Reeva at 3:00 - first set of noises, not specific to gunshots, just noises, then please tell me what OP did during the following 17 minutes of time. Am I to believe that OP had a 17 minute screaming, crying, and arguing session with himself, using alternatively a man's and a woman's voice; and that Reeva was alive through all of that up until 3:25 when he brought her downstairs and stuck his fingers in her mouth? That is unbelievable. But in "OP "Land" the unbelievable is the same as the truth and fact.

I can't fill in that time, as I don't know what happened.

All that can be ascertained is that there can't be a theory that the gunshots were fired first, and the screaming heard after the gunshots was Reeva's. It's impossible, therefore it can be excluded.

If you want Reeva's screaming to be heard by the witnesses, something different happened that morning...and then you have to assume that the majority of witnesses are wrong and did not hear gunshots first, as many are claiming.

 

[Trooper]

Agreed, and it was utter foolishness to have introduced the 'slamming' word .. but I doubt very much it was intentional, it was a slip up as to what actually happened that night, as was the 'kicking' of the toilet door when OP slipped up once again when he something about that door not only being slammed but kicked at the same time, as well. OP thinks he has total control over the trial and what he says, but it's not possible and little words like this will keep on slipping out ..

For Oscar.... he is forever impaled on that split second when he pulled the trigger the first time ....everything he did before and after is predicated on that nanosecond of time, the decision, the act and the consequences.. in that order.

He has had to move with time forward from that point but at the same time, he has to work backwards to get to that point of the trigger pulling moment that avoids the consequences that come after it.

It requires a split mind that can hold two unequivocal and irreconcilable memories at the same time and call one up , then the other without stumbling.. because the human intellect doesn't do that without its own set of inevitable consequences.. which is what we are seeing on the stand when he speaks..

he is impaled on the unequivocal and the irreconcilable at the one and the same time.

 

[jassy writer]

Oscar had five days to come up with his affidavit after claiming he thought she was an intruder. The testimony in it was not even worded by himself - it was put together by his legal team who had been at his house and observed the crime scene closely. It is just about the only scenario that would fit the facts neatly but the problem is, it has been tailored to fit the facts and requires a certain suspension of disbelief if you accept it.

For example, the fact that he walked on his stumps down a dark passage to confront a suspected intruder after failing to properly ascertain the whereabouts of his girlfriend.

Now, under Nel's scrutiny, we are seeing the small holes in his testimony start to appear. The DT could not think of everything... nobody can when you are putting together a cover-up. I hope that the judge is taking note of all the small details that simply cannot be explained without another massive suspension of disbelief (the positioning of the fans, the fact that the duvet was found on the floor...).

 

[sorrell skye]

Remember for Oscars nonsense to be true, he screams like a woman before he has broken the door down and has even seen Reeva, and then stops once he gets it open, o.k then.

Yep, in OP's version, before he had even broken through the toilet room door, before he saw that it was, indeed, Reeva who he had shot, he said he did the following:

"I was panicking at this point. I didn't know what to make or what to do," Pistorius recounted. "I don't think I've ever screamed like that. ... I was crying out to the Lord, I was crying out for Reeva," he said, choking back the tears.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/09/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-trial/

One would expect him to scream like that AFTER he saw her slumped over, bleeding, fatally shot & dying in the toilet cubicle.

Once again, I think he was tailoring his testimony to fit the evidence of the ear witnesses.

 

[DebinGA]

At what point in the passage/bathroom did OP scream to Mr. Intruder, "Get out of my house!"? Just trying to get OP/Roux's thinking here, as inviting the intruder to leave and then blowing him away as soon as he touched the door handle doesn't seem to make sense.

 

[Emz73]

There could well be a witness called by defense yet.

The Netcare call hasn't been introduced by Nel as far as I can remember. If he bypasses it, it's probably because they can't trace the call or it doesn't strengthen the prosecution's case.

Maybe if there was a jury it would of been played first with defence I surpose, add sympathy. The judge has heard loads of those calls. My sister who is a lawyer says it goes in his favour that there is a judge who is strickly going on evidence (or the lack of it :-( )
Whereas jurors usually go on instinct when the evidence isn't clear, so the arrogance in court lately may have gone against him.

 

[steveml]

how do you know what Charl Johnson heard was the actual gunshots and not the other set of sounds?.

Good point,

I'm not certain, I only have the witness testimony.

When questioned he said 'I cannot remember the number of shots, but the wife says 4 or 5 shots. He wouldn't commit.

His wife, Michelle Burger is the one who Roux suggested had heard the case details in the media before she testified.

She was asked in court how many shots did her husband think he heard, and her reply was 4, 5 or 6.

Nevertheless I may have another look back through their testimonies to see if there's anything else.

 

[asanque]

I can go along with some of that. It's those doors again though. At a pinch I couldn't rule out the bathroom door making a noise loud enough to travel some distance, as the bathroom window was open. It's the bedroom door that I'd be struggling to believe. This is set much further back in the house, nearer to the patio side. All three bangs were heard by Charl Johnson, he thought these were gunshots, and he lives the furthest away at approx, 177 meters from OP, which is quite some distance. The problem with his testimony is that he claims each set of three were in rapid succession. Quicker than it takes to swing a cricket bat at a door three times.

It's unlikely either Reeva or OP can run that fast.

Alternatively, Johnson and Burger were awoken by screaming and then heard the gunshots. The gunshots happened sometime after 3 a.m. so conceivably could have been the 3:17 a.m. gunshots.

Only the Stipps heard the initial banging at 3 a.m. which could have been the doors.

 

[Cherwell]

Can it be proved that he didn't fire off some shots around 3 am, off the balcony or out of the window? Either out of temper or to frighten Reeva.

 

[Trooper]

At what point in the passage/bathroom did OP scream to Mr. Intruder, "Get out of my house!"? Just trying to get OP/Roux's thinking here, as inviting the intruder to leave and then blowing him away as soon as he touched the door handle doesn't seem to make sense.

like that old game.. 'Come Closer So I Can Punch You'??

 

[DebinGA]

Picture of OP without his "legs" .... which is a much shorter section than I'd visualized:


http://www.runnersworld.co.za/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2012/07/Oscar.jpeg

 

[asanque]

Playing the devil's advocate for just a brief moment.

The only troubling matter that remains for me is the timeline from 3:17 a.m. (assuming that was the time of the fatal shots)

We have as evidence that OP called Stander at 3:19 a.m. and Netcare directly afterwards.

I imagine it would take at least 10 minutes to break down the door and bring Reeva downstairs (if we accept the premise he wasn't on his prosthetics). This would have to occur at the same time he was calling a number of people.

We really need to find out what time Stander and Dr. Stipp arrived at the house.

If it was around 3:45 a.m., it still makes sense.

If it was closer to 3:30 a.m., then the 3:17 a.m. fatal shots get more problematic.

 

[DebinGA]

Very good article here:

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blo...m_medium=twitter&mbid=social_twitter&mobify=0

Bringing forward this excellent article posted earlier by jassy writer.

 

[james83]

Fact is either
(A) 5/5 people heard the mystery sounds(possibly bat on door) and only 2/5 heard gunshots or
(B) 2/5 people heard the mystery sounds and 5/5 heard gunshots, what seems more likely?.

Bear in mind the 2 people who heard both sets of sounds were the closest neighbours of those who testified and were directly in line with Pistorius bathroom.

 

[james83]

Playing the devil's advocate for just a brief moment.

The only troubling matter that remains for me is the timeline from 3:17 a.m. (assuming that was the time of the fatal shots)

We have as evidence that OP called Stander at 3:19 a.m. and Netcare directly afterwards.

I imagine it would take at least 10 minutes to break down the door and bring Reeva downstairs (if we accept the premise he wasn't on his prosthetics). This would have to occur at the same time he was calling a number of people.

We really need to find out what time Stander and Dr. Stipp arrived at the house.

If it was around 3:45 a.m., it still makes sense.

If it was closer to 3:30 a.m., then the 3:17 a.m. fatal shots get more problematic.

Sorry 10 minutes, please explain why 10 minutes, that seems way to long.