Trial Discussion weekend Thread #24

[Murphys_Law]

20 to 30 minutes in my book.

She was dead in the closet.

That means first set of shots [at 3am] were gunshots [IMO].

FWIW Molly, I have not discounted that gunshots were heard by the Stipps around 3:00 am, however I do believe the fatal shots were fired in the 3:15 to 3:16 period.
If you recall during the prosecution case, photos were shown of the bedroom door with what I believe were .177 in/4.5 mm calibre pellets. Now, the air rifle does appear to have a silencer on it (although I am not certain of that), but the sound of the pellet hitting the door would make a bang, and also if it is a rifle with a muzzle velocity greater than that of the speed of sound, then certainly the crack of the pellet surpassing supersonic speed would be heard and recognized as shots.

 

[steveml]

Maybe if there was a jury it would of been played first with defence I surprise, add sympathy. The judge has heard loads of those calls. My sister who is a lawyer says it goes in his favour that there is a judge who is strickly going on evidence (or the lack of it :-( )
Whereas jurors usually go on instinct when the evidence isn't clear, so the arrogance in court lately may have gone against him.

I agree. It's also often better to have a jury as there's always a chance that a majority verdict may not be reached. In this case I think Judge Masipa will be well aware of the conflicting evidence on both sides and will treat it accordingly.

With regard to the Netcare call, it's probably unlikely that there is a witness to be called as I suggested earlier, as it's normally just an audio playback in court. If a call hasn't been recorded, I'd be surprised if neither side refers to it though. Even to say the call info. wasn't available.

 

[patCee]

Carmelita...

Is he a cold blooded killer trying to save his own or is he a rather dull witted, paranoid hot headed, immature, boy man who has never had to take responsibility for his bad behavior who made an adrenaline fueled fatal mistake and tried to cover it up by making himself seem less culpable than he was? I haven’t made up my mind.

I think he is both, a cold blooded killer, if the shooting was the result of an argument. I think it was...and a 'boy man' as we're seeing on the stand, where he is obfuscating in order to avoid responsibility.

Trooper...

he is impaled on the unequivocal and the irreconcilable at the one and the same time.

I think this quote sums up his actions and his performance in court perfectly. A dangerous man.

 

[jay-jay]

In his testimony yesterday, OP very briefly mentioned - when explaining why he wasn't concerned the downstairs window hadn't been fixed immediately - that 'the latch couldn't be opened from the outside anyway'.

I'm wondering if the upstairs windows were the same, and if so, why he'd think he heard intruders sliding it open, from the outside?

Good point, zwiebel .. yes, normally with those types of windows, unless they are already open a fraction anyway, you would not be able to open them at all from the outside .. so, if he (being so paranoid about intruders) had ensure the window was fully shut before going to bed, why would he even think an intruder could've opened it without having smashed the glass first?

It's a shame there is no photographic evidence of that window during, or just before he killed Reeva, to confirm whether it was open or not, because I swear that is why he trotted upstairs while Dr Stipp was there (not the one when the paramedics arrived and asked for ID, but the little trip upstairs before that) was to open the bathroom window. That was the only thing he needed to do in order to set the crime scene to fit his 'intruder' version .. that all .. nothing else. I personally don't think the bathroom window was open prior to that (and all of the sounds the neighbour's heard were conveyed either through the balcony doors or via the toilet window).

 

[asanque]

Sorry 10 minutes, please explain why 10 minutes, that seems way to long.

It was established he was not on his prosthetics so he would need to put those on.

He would also need some time to break the door down.

All this whilst in the middle of making 3 phone calls between the time of the shooting and bringing Reeva downstairs.

 

[weeeva]

BBM


The fact that OP had his arm on the wall for balance and leaned back against the wall makes perfect sense, whatever speed OP's traveling at.
Below the knee amputation often necessitates the need to hold or lean against something stable, especially once you stop moving.

Once he stops moving he is more than likely to sway. The swaying is further exaggerated by unclear vision or darkness. This is precisely why it is beyond reasonable doubt that OP could have targeted his shots to the head, or indeed anywhere, from where the PT were claiming. He either had to be leaning back for stability, or swaying.

The following link makes quite interesting reading :- link

Thank you for this link. So it means that OP is more disabled than some of us want to acknowledge. This info strengthens my belief that he is a severely disabled man who feels extremely vulnerable without his prosthetics. His so called "paranoia" is justified, in fact I would go as far as to say he is not paranoid at all, because his fear is rational whereas paranoia is mainly used to describe an irrational fear.

 

[Emz73]

Remember for Oscars nonsense to be true, he screams like a woman before he has broken the door down and has even seen Reeva, and then stops once he gets it open, o.k then.

If you had just shot at intruders on purpose because you thought they were about to come out of the door. Why would you scream? (Blood curdling frightened screams) Wouldn't you just feel angry and self righteous.
Or would you scream because somehow, by accident you shoot at the door, and couldn't believe want you had done? OMG I've just shoot at the door...****!!! Scared at your own anger.
Was the balconey "help" straight after. Or was the help after he couldn't open the door?

 

[DebinGA]

So how do you deal with the official fact that OP had to have pulled the trigger when the gun went off in the restaurant? Do you believe that he didn't have his finger on the trigger and that the gun miraculously discharged itself?

That's a good example of an accident. Illegal, but an accident at least.

 

[Trooper]

A dangerous man.

snipped by me for modesty.. heh


Pat.. I think he is incurably dangerous.. there is a short circuit there that is unfixable.. age wont weary him..

 

[sorrell skye]

Playing the devil's advocate for just a brief moment.

The only troubling matter that remains for me is the timeline from 3:17 a.m. (assuming that was the time of the fatal shots)

We have as evidence that OP called Stander at 3:19 a.m. and Netcare directly afterwards.

I imagine it would take at least 10 minutes to break down the door and bring Reeva downstairs (if we accept the premise he wasn't on his prosthetics). This would have to occur at the same time he was calling a number of people.

We really need to find out what time Stander and Dr. Stipp arrived at the house.

If it was around 3:45 a.m., it still makes sense.

If it was closer to 3:30 a.m., then the 3:17 a.m. fatal shots get more problematic.

Dr. Stipp called estate security at 3:15:51 a.m. immediately after hearing the 2nd set of bangs.

OP called Stander at 3:19:03 a.m.

Three minutes elapsed between when the 2nd set of bangs was heard by Dr. Stipp and when OP called Stander. I think that's plenty of time for OP to put on his prosthetic legs (it takes OP seconds to put on his legs), run back to the bathroom, pull the panels out of the toilet door, and pull Reeva out.

I remember in the Jodi Arias trial, Juan Martinez called for 2 minutes of silence to demonstrate how long it took Travis to die. Those two minutes were looooong.

So I think 3 minutes would be more than enough time for OP to pull panels out of the door if they had already been cracked from the cricket bat before he fired 4 bullets through the door.

 

[james83]

It was established he was not on his prosthetics so he would need to put those on.

He would also need some time to break the door down.

All this whilst in the middle of making 3 phone calls between the time of the shooting and bringing Reeva downstairs.

It takes him seconds to put them on.
By his own admission he only hit the door 3 times with the bat.

 

[molly333]

First thing I'd do in an emergency situation like this would be to quickly shout for help, next priority get that door open by any means to see what condition my partner is in, next priority see if I can stem bleeding, whilst I'm stemming the blood my hands wouldn't be free to do anything else. As soon as I can do nothing more I would phone for help.

I don't know the situation with the panic buttons, but at this stage you're fully aware that you're not dealing with an intruder, you're dealing with a casualty. At that moment, shouting for a neighbour would probably be far quicker and more productive than anything security could do.

There's this thing called 'the golden hour.' One hour to get a severe trauma to the emergency room, maybe less but not more.

First thing to do : call an ambulance.

 

[james83]

BBM


The fact that OP had his arm on the wall for balance and leaned back against the wall makes perfect sense, whatever speed OP's traveling at.
Below the knee amputation often necessitates the need to hold or lean against something stable, especially once you stop moving.

Once he stops moving he is more than likely to sway. The swaying is further exaggerated by unclear vision or darkness. This is precisely why it is beyond reasonable doubt that OP could have targeted his shots to the head, or indeed anywhere, from where the PT were claiming. He either had to be leaning back for stability, or swaying.

The following link makes quite interesting reading :- link

Funny he should need that support at this part of the story but then whilst still on his stumps he manages all this

"I retreated back to the point where I got to the corner of the bed. I tried to lift myself up while talking to Reeva. No one responded to me. At that point lifted myself up into the bed and I thought Reeva was there and I couldn't feel anything.

"At that point the first thing I thought was maybe she got down onto the floor like I told her to, maybe she was just scared ... I can't remember what I said but I was trying to talk out to her.

"It was upon that time, my Lady, that it first dawned upon me that it could be Reeva that was in the bathroom or in the toilet. I jumped out of the other side of the bed and I ran my hands along the curtains to see that she wasn't hiding.

"I didn't want to believe it was Reeva in the toilet, I was so scared that someone was coming in to attack us. I made my way inside the bathroom ... I tried to grab the handle, rip open the door. I pushed the door to open and it was locked.

"I ran back to the room, I opened the curtains, opened the doors and shouted from the balcony for help. I screamed 'help, help, help'. I screamed for somebody to help me.

All this done before he puts his prosthesis on, jumping off the bed, running his hand along the curtains in the pitch dark, trying to rip open the toilet door, running back to the bedroom still on stumps, opening the curtains, opening the doors.

 

[Carmelita]

That's a good example of an accident. Illegal, but an accident at least.

An accident, I agree but what psychological gymnastics must be going on inside OP's brain for him to state in court, unequivocally, that his finger was not on the trigger and that he did not fire the gun. It is this part of his psychological makeup that makes me scratch my little head.

This type of denial, in the face of the evidence, in front of the judge, and needless denial at that, makes me wonder about his mental capacity not just his lack of intelligence.

 

[Emz73]

I'm so on the fence with all this. I keep thinking that usually the truth is very simple.
If OP is telling the truth...then why on earth is he acting like such an arrogant, blaming, irresponsible, prat on the stand? Why argue with the state.

He must really think its an accident a kin to mending the tiles on your roof, telling your partner that's what you are doing then them walking underneath, he makes a mistake in loosening too many and they fall on her head and kill her.
Poor him, complete accident, why aren't we being more sympathic.

He shot someone!!! I'm just not hearing him taking responsibility.
Maybe its more shocking to me as I live in a low crime rate area.

There's something not right.
Or is he just a complete idiot.

 

[molly333]

Good suggestion, Freya.

Guess which "case" is the first Google result of that search?

This one:

Dr. BAXTER. . . . We then gave him or Dr. Perry and Dr. Clark alternated giving him closed chest cardiac massage only until we could get a cardioscope hooked up to tell us if there were any detectible heartbeat electrically present, at least, and there was none, and we discussed at that moment whether we should open the chest to attempt to revive him, while the closed chest massage was going on, and we had an opportunity to look at his head wound then and saw that the damage was beyond hope, that is, in a word — literally the right side of his head had been blown off. With this and the observation that the cerebellum was present — a large quantity of brain was present on the cart, well — we felt that such an additional heroic attempt was not warranted, and we did not pronounce him dead but ceased our efforts, and awaited the priest and last rites before we pronounced him dead. 6H41

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/faceup.htm

 

[Linda7NJ]

I think the situation with nitpicking the time line is over analyzing.
Broken down in a logical way, it's virtually impossible to believe it was an accident. And impossible to walk away with any other belief than Oscar is a liar and incapable for taking responsibility for any wrong doing, in any and every situation.
IMO

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Carmelita]

By the way OP has stated in his cross examination that "the gun went off" in the case of Reeva's death. Not I fired the gun, or I shot, or I pulled the trigger. Perhaps in other testimony he states "I shot" or something similar.

 

[jassy writer]

I find it easier to believe it took him three or four minutes to break down the door (more like four minutes actually, or even five, since Stander, after hearing the shots, would have had to find his cellphone, look the number up, dial, call would have to connect and be answered...) than I find it to believe it took him more than fifteen minutes to break down the door.

Similarly, I find it impossible to believe that OP, after wailing and screaming in a man's and a woman's voice for fifteen plus minutes after firing the shots through the door, should immediately assume a deathly silence once he gets the door open and sees his dying GF.

Even according to his plea affidavit, 15+ minutes are not accounted for:

"I fired shots at the toilet door and shouted to Reeva to phone the police. She did not respond and I moved backwards out of the bathroom, keeping my eyes on the bathroom entrance. Everything was pitch dark in the bedroom and I was still too scared to switch on a light. Reeva was not responding. When I reached the bed, I realised that Reeva was not in bed. That is when it dawned on me that it could have been Reeva who was in the toilet. I returned to the bathroom calling her name. I tried to open the toilet door but it was locked. I rushed back into the bedroom and opened the sliding door exiting onto the balcony and screamed for help. I put on my prosthetic legs, ran back to the bathroom and tried to kick the toilet door open. I think I must then have turned on the lights. I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door."

If you ask me, the only reason why he states in his affidavit that he went out on the balcony so soon after his version of the shooting to scream for help, before he had even tried to get into the toilet, is that he knew screams for help had recently been made and might have been heard (Reeva's screams).

 

[sorrell skye]

An accident, I agree but what psychological gymnastics must be going on inside OP's brain for him to state in court, unequivocally, that his finger was not on the trigger and that he did not fire the gun. It is this part of his psychological makeup that makes me scratch my little head.

This type of denial, in the face of the evidence, in front of the judge, and needless denial at that, makes me wonder about his mental capacity not just his lack of intelligence.

I've encountered one or two chronic liars in my lifetime who, even when presented with incontrovertible evidence of their lies, still insisted they were telling the truth.

I think OP is that type of liar.

At the beginning of Nel's cross of OP, OP actually stated "I'll try not to lie."

When I heard that, I knew there would be a truckload of lies to follow. In that regard, OP hasn't disappointed.