Trial Discussion weekend Thread #24

[shane13]

BBM - he didn't try and stem anything. He just sat there with her for at least 5 minutes and did nothing. He never claimed to have stemmed any bleeding, but he did claim that he sat there and cried. So at that point, he did absolutely nothing for a period of 5 minutes. Then, for some strange reason, he decides to try and resuscitate her later when he's bringing her down the stairs. He doesn't try this as soon as possible after dragging her into the bathroom. No. He waits till he's on his way downstairs. Make any sense? Forget that he's supposedly on his way out to the hospital with her, because he still stops to try and resuscitate her. So why not do it in the bathroom as soon as he was able to 'assist' her?

I have noted this also, and I wonder what SA law is on this matter?
.
Again, not an atty, but I understand in the USA, a few states have laws that assert the following. If you are there and someone needs immediate medical attention to survive and you do nothing, you can be charged with a crime. Others have possible civil penalties.

And waiting till the person is dead and then pretending to help should not deter that law from taking effect where it exists. It may be called "duty of care” or such.
In some states, there are civil penalties or lawsuits are facilitated if you are there and do nothing to try to assist someone in dire medical condition. I know that Reeva's parents have sued OP. But I do not know if this is part of their suit.

In any case, the 5 minutes is Oscar's own version of non-assistance for his allegedly beloved GF. It does not involve the Pros. version of deliberate, premeditated murder. Which itself is nowhere's near as bad as my possible version such as I have in my schadenfreude/sadism final scenario. So Oscar's own version is the least possible damning version—but still includes 5 minutes of NON-care for a dying person—his allegedly beloved GF.

Now note another contradiction. He goes into the puking reaction upon seeing her injured and bloodied, he also wanted to wipe her blood off him asap, etc. yet he claims he sat there with her like that for 5 minutes? A great contradiction that seems to indicate again wanting to make sure she would only get help after she was no longer “helpable.”

Perhaps it is no coincidence that he was seen carrying Reeva down the stairs. With a phone held for 16 days, perhaps he was told by security or cops that they will be at his door within a couple of minutes, so the act to show he was trying to save her began. And this is why he was actually seen by Mr. Baba at the top of the stairs.

MOO, but I just do not think that is likely to have been a coincidence. It was crucial (to him) that when first seen by anyone it would be in the act of appearing to try to save her.

Which I think he overplayed with e.g. the finger in her throat! This is often a problem with a complex set of lies. It often can be seen to be overplayed or to a level that is seen by others to be absurd.

 

[BlueShoe]

I don't get why people don't think he had time to make up a story, he shot her through a door, all he had to say was he thought it was someone else in there, he then had 5 days until the bail hearing to come up with his affidavit.

Do we know for sure he even said that? He may have simply said it was an "accident" and then made up the intruder story later.

 

[weeeva]

The photo of the jeans on the outside of the house was entered in as evidence. That means that Nel can (and more than likely will) ask OP about those jeans. Same goes for the bedroom door. Nel did not admit those photos into evidence for nothing. He had a reason for doing so, we just haven't heard about that reason yet.

Sorry everyone for being so thick, but I am completely mixed up. Why was OP not called to the stand when the prosecution was presenting it's case? Is this the way it is always done. Could someone put me right please?

 

[TorisMom003]

Do we know for sure he even said that? He may have simply said it was an "accident" and then made up the intruder story later.

Dr. Stipp testified that OP told him he shot Reeva, thinking she was an intruder.

 

[clearskies1]

We'll never know a lot of what really happened the 13th/14th but these are some things I'd like to know about and that the PT can put in evidence on rebuttal (if a rebuttal case is allowed) without needing OP's testimony:

1. Stander and Clarice -- what did they tell the police?
2. Netcare -- what does Netcare say happened on that call?
3. The blood over the bed -- is it blood spatter?

MOO

 

[BritsKate]

By "clear" I think they meant you could clearly hear the words being shouted and tell if man or woman.

What did the closest witnesses hear?

According to the defence, crying, and and no screaming at all. Despite the insistence that the screaming was actually Oscar. Still waiting to hear why Oscar was apparently screaming for 12 minutes before shots were fired though.

(Can anyone tell I'm pretty hung up on those screams? )

 

[TorisMom003]

Sorry everyone for being so thick, but I am completely mixed up. Why was OP not called to the stand when the prosecution was presenting it's case? Is this the way it is always done. Could someone put me right please?

The State can not call the accused to the stand. It is the right of the accused to not take the stand in their own defense if they chose not to. The defense called OP to the stand because OP wanted to take the stand.

 

[molly333]

Sorry everyone for being so thick, but I am completely mixed up. Why was OP not called to the stand when the prosecution was presenting it's case? Is this the way it is always done. Could someone put me right please?

Because OP is the star witness for the defense.

Defendant doesn't have to take the stand, but the lawyers say he does in this case because he is claiming self defense or accident based on self defense. So he needs to explain his state of mind to the court.

 

[DebinGA]

Talking about the LED light. OP wanted to cover the light with the jeans because it was distracting if he went to sleep. However, OP testified that he had been asleep from 10 pm (or 9 pm as I have stated before) until 3 am. So how is it that it was not distracting enough before 3 am?

My thought, he never went to sleep at all that night and neither did Reeva.

That's very believable to me, mainly because I think OP spends as little time as possible "legless" when others are around, especially a love interest. Mangena left open the possibility that OP could have fired wearing his legs if he shot from the waist instead of the more comfortable shoulder position.

 

[sorrell skye]

Sorry everyone for being so thick, but I am completely mixed up. Why was OP not called to the stand when the prosecution was presenting it's case? Is this the way it is always done. Could someone put me right please?

OP is the accused/defendant. He can't be compelled to testify, but he can if he chooses (he's chosen to).

If a defendant chooses to testify, they do so during the Defense's case in chief, which occurs after the prosecution rests.

 

[ShadyLady]

So---shots happened at 3am.

First call goes out to Stander 19 minutes later....?

Defense and Pros could have agreed to this but, maybe it's not what really happened. I missed the analysis of the bullet angles through the door. Was some blood was shed in bedroom.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Talking about the LED light. OP wanted to cover the light with the jeans because it was distracting if he went to sleep. However, OP testified that he had been asleep from 10 pm (or 9 pm as I have stated before) until 3 am. So how is it that it was not distracting enough before 3 am?

My thought, he never went to sleep at all that night and neither did Reeva.

I also think he inserted that picking up the jeans thing not only for the led but also for the impression that he was busy with leaning on the floor and picking them up and not turned his face to Reeva's side..

I saw Mrs Steenkamp when he mentioned her jeans on the floor and my gut feeling she got irritated and looked at the woman sitting near her..

 

[Viper]

Someone give a good answer to this question, Oscar gets off the phone to netcare and is told to bring her in at 3:21:11, so why didn't he do it?, why did he not pick her up put her in his car and go?, the answer is he couldn't afford for her to live.

I have to disagree, apologies. Reeva was already dead when OP made that call to Netcare that lasted 60 seconds. He didnt take her down because he was busy thinking really really hard about what he was going to say and do when people started to arrive. Imagine the pressure in his mind trying to settle on one of the thousands of options!
:fireworks:

But in the end he picked the easiest one, the old armed intruder story, and he made a dramatic exhibition by waiting for people to enter the door before he paraded Reeva's dead body down the stairs to present it to them. And to add a sense of urgency and concern he put his fingers in the corpse's mouth pretending to try to help it come back to life.

That is all. Rant over now.

 

[BritsKate]

I am not much good at keeping track of all the evidence, but I was under the impression that the prosecution having already made it's case, they could not now bring in new evidence. The jeans lying outside has never been mentioned, by either side, so it can't be brought into play now, which means it had nothing to do with the incident, or if it did, that one or both lawyers are totally incompetent. The same applies to the bedroom door. As far as I can remember the phones and internet records have already been explored and nothing else can come to light now. As for the trip to the Mamelodi medical centre I admit I have no clue what you are talking about.

Bear in mind though that there are evidentiary rules in play so where they cannot introduce 'new' evidence, they can certainly introduce certain evidence to rebut the defence case. Like character evidence - Oscar has managed to throw the door wide open to that - but it's something the State was precluded from leading with.

 

[molly333]

According to the defence, crying, and and no screaming at all. Despite the insistence that the screaming was actually Oscar. Still waiting to hear why Oscar was apparently screaming for 12 minutes before shots were fired though.

(Can anyone tell I'm pretty hung up on those screams? )

I haven't heard the witness testimony yet, but one has to ask oneself--

If both prosecution and defense agree she was shot at 3am, who was doing all that crying/screaming for 17 minutes?

Do we really know the shots happened all at once?

 

[TorisMom003]

I am seeing a very different Roux from yesterday. It's almost as if he knows that he simply can not defend all of the things that OP is now claiming on the stand. Roux is trying his best but knows that this is a loosing battle.

I told hubby yesterday that I am beginning to feel sorry for Roux. OP has laid blame for many things now onto Roux. Things that can (and more than likely will) affect Roux's practice in the future.

MOO

 

[lisasalinger]

That's very believable to me, mainly because I think OP spends as little time as possible "legless" when others are around, especially a love interest. Mangena left open the possibility that OP could have fired wearing his legs if he shot from the waist instead of the more comfortable shoulder position.

If they were arguing/scuffling in the bathroom, he could have been on his knees with his prosthetics on at the time

 

[james83]

Do we know for sure he even said that? He may have simply said it was an "accident" and then made up the intruder story later.

When Dr Stipp arrived at Oscar's house the first thing Oscar said to him was "I shot her, i thought she was a burglar".

 

[jay-jay]

Agree. That's one of the reasons I tend to give him benefit of doubt. It all happened too quickly for him to be able make up a plausible story. Well plausible to me at least.

I think you might be surprised by just how quickly some people are able to make things up/lie.

 

[shane13]

OP about Dr. Stipp: "He didn't seem to know what he was doing."

But clearly Dr Stipp did.
And Oscar is ungrateful for his assistance in getting his finger out from Reeva's clenched jaw.