Trial Discussion weekend Thread #24

[molly333]

Another reason why I think it's unlikely Reeva was about to dump OP is because she'd already mentioned in a text that she was scared of him sometimes and how he would react to her. Reeva wasn't stupid. I'm sure she knew that dumping him after a) giving him a Valentine's Day gift, b) cooking him dinner (if that's what happened) and c) changing her plans to go home - was going to invoke some sort of unpleasant response from OP. Why would she risk that when we know she was always on tiptoes round him to avoid offending him about anything, chewing gum, hair in a ponytail, talking to a waiter for too long, dressed too casually etc etc. It's just not feasible that she'd risk a negative reaction to such a significant issue when she was on her own with him.

She did what every DV victim does.

She underestimated the danger she was in.

Or, it was an accident.

 

[Mr Fossil]

We're debating here whether the vest top Reeva is wearing when she arrives that evening (see http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...end-Reeva-Steenkamp-trial-date-set-March.html at foot of page) is the same as that she was killed in (see http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/34.jpg). We think it's unlikely but possible. Any views?

 

[fox1lady]

I still have compassion for Oscar. I think he is a lost soul who has triumphed over a lot of adversity. I don't see that a jail term will benefit either him or society, especially when one considers the many malicious murderers and rapists in SA who don't even stand trial due to lack of evidence....the way I see it, the evidence does not dispute his version of events to the extent that he should be found guilty. His life willl never be the same and he will have to live with this forever. That is punishment enough. <mod snip> MHOO.

No way, he definitely deserves some jail time. This guy is so arrogant it's untrue... when I listen to him it still sounds as though he is incredulous at even being on trial in the first place and how dare Gerrie Nel speak to him in the way that he does, why does Milady not tell him off.

The spoilt brat won't even take responsibility for the seriousness of what he did not "make a mistake" he shot and killed Reeva... saying "I took her life" does not make it less of a crime. Why should he get away with it?

BTW why shouldn't she seek compensation from her daughter's killer?

 

[Suthrnqt]

Though wouldn't most of us try to avoid 35yrs in jail, no matter how guilty we knew ourselves to be? I would anyway lol.

No, I would have plead guilty.

 

[kittychi]

We're debating here whether the vest top Reeva is wearing when she arrives that evening (see http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...end-Reeva-Steenkamp-trial-date-set-March.html at foot of page) is the same as that she was killed in (see http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/34.jpg). We think it's unlikely but possible. Any views?

I would wager a lot that it is the exact same vest and that she never took it off.

 

[BritsKate]

She did what every DV victim does.



She underestimated the danger she was in.



Or, it was an accident.

You and I agree on a lot. I don't believe she went there with the intention of breaking up. I think something happened that made her have her aha moment that night though. Aha moment is what I call the moment an abuse victim initially recognises abuse for what it really is (no minimization, justification, denial, etc.) and refuses to tolerate it any longer.


Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[soozieqtips]

I still have compassion for Oscar. I think he is a lost soul who has triumphed over a lot of adversity. I don't see that a jail term will benefit either him or society, especially when one considers the many malicious murderers and rapists in SA who don't even stand trial due to lack of evidence....the way I see it, the evidence does not dispute his version of events to the extent that he should be found guilty. His life willl never be the same and he will have to live with this forever. That is punishment enough. <modsnip> MHOO.

Suffered enough, how exactly? He's been out on bail for over a year, got a new girlfriend, been on holiday, hardly suffering. So because his life will never be the same, that's 'suffered enough'? Guess what - it's directly because of his own actions that he's in this situation. Too many people pandering to his many whims and never holding him to account for his vile behaviour over the years. And if he murdered Reeva knowing it was her behind the door, then he deserves a very very long prison sentence so that other people can remain safe from him.

 

[soozieqtips]

She did what every DV victim does.

She underestimated the danger she was in.

Or, it was an accident.

Did I misunderstand you, or did you think she was about to break up with OP that night?

 

[Chelly]

No. I'm deducing it from circumstantial evidence.

An out of control fight about what? Where to go to dinner the next night?

This ended in her death. That's a DV fight over a big issue, like leaving him.

Or, it was an accident.

They never went to bed that night.

An out of control fight: Certainly not over where to go to dinner, that would be silly....but who knows, OP is controlling and has a short fuse. Email evidence indicates he bullied Reeva. I think something on OP's iphone was of concern to Reeva and the fight started with that. She may have been reading his messages. There is certainly enough evidence to bring the iphone into play. We have no way of knowing what the argument was about. However, Reeva clearly hid herself in a locked bathroom for protection and screaming was involved.

Do we know how many phones she brought into the bathroom with her?

Nah, wasn't an accident. Not a chance.

How do we know they never got into bed that night?

 

[BritsKate]

I still have compassion for Oscar. I think he is a lost soul who has triumphed over a lot of adversity. I don't see that a jail term will benefit either him or society, especially when one considers the many malicious murderers and rapists in SA who don't even stand trial due to lack of evidence....the way I see it, the evidence does not dispute his version of events to the extent that he should be found guilty. His life willl never be the same and he will have to live with this forever. That is punishment enough. <modsnip> MHOO.

Oscar has triumphed over adversity...and he was exceedingly fortunate in ways other disabled people can't begin to hope for which undoubtedly aided his triumph.

So...his adversity shouldn't now be an issue, right? He has triumphed after all.

Personally, I think a prison sentence would likely preserve someone's toe, or another's legs, or prevent another injury in an assault, or another human's - or perhaps even a dog's - life...but that's jmo.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[molly333]

You and I agree on a lot. I don't believe she went there with the intention of breaking up. I think something happened that made her have her aha moment that night though. Aha moment is what I call the moment an abuse victim initially recognises abuse for what it really is (no minimization, justification, denial, etc.) and refuses to tolerate it any longer.


Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

Could be.

You think--he puts her down and that is the last straw and she says, that's it, I'm going home, don't call me again?

But, she didn't intend to stay with him that night. He manipulated her into it.

First dinner, which she didn't intend to cook. And, then something else, which caused her to stay beyond the time when she could drive home safely.

And, it looks to me like she didn't intend being with him the next night either[present the day before, intending to go home, saying to family see you tomorrow].

They were both in town. Why wouldn't she go out to dinner with him on V-day? Unless, she had already decided, it is over?

 

[Chelly]

No. I'm deducing it from circumstantial evidence.

An out of control fight about what? Where to go to dinner the next night?

This ended in her death. That's a DV fight over a big issue, like leaving him.

Or, it was an accident.

They never went to bed that night.

Circumstantial evidence is still evidence, so I ask again: What evidence has been entered that shows Reeva broke up with OP that night thus causing the fight and her subsequent death?

 

[Viper]

An out of control fight: Certainly not over where to go to dinner, that would be silly....but who knows, OP is controlling and has a short fuse. Email evidence indicates he bullied Reeva. I think something on OP's iphone was of concern to Reeva and the fight started with that. She may have been reading his messages. There is certainly enough evidence to bring the iphone into play. We have no way of knowing what the argument was about. However, Reeva clearly hid herself in a locked bathroom for protection and screaming was involved.

Do we know how many phones she brought into the bathroom with her?

Nah, wasn't an accident. Not a chance.

How do we know they never got into bed that night?

BIB. IMO Because the curtains were wide open and both the bedroom and the patio lights were switched on.

 

[Mr Fossil]

I would wager a lot that it is the exact same vest and that she never took it off.

Have now looked at the photo taken at OP's that morning showing Reeva's head wound and concluded that it's a different top. It has a much higher neckline.

 

[Chelly]

Could be.

You think--he puts her down and that is the last straw and she says, that's it, I'm going home, don't call me again?

But, she didn't intend to stay with him that night. He manipulated her into it.

First dinner, which she didn't intend to cook. And, then something else, which caused her to stay beyond the time when she could drive home safely.

And, it looks to me like she didn't intend being with him the next night either[present the day before, intending to go home, saying to family see you tomorrow].

They were both in town. Why wouldn't she go out to dinner with him on V-day? Unless, she had already decided, it is over?

Ok, this is all what you are imagining happened. However there is nothing to back it up. You could imagine that a sexy lady knocked on OP's door and Reeva got furious. Or, you could imagine that an old boyfriend knocked on OP's door and OP got furious.....

Theories work best when supported by evidence, fact, logic and behavioral knowledge.

 

[molly333]

An out of control fight: Certainly not over where to go to dinner, that would be silly....but who knows, OP is controlling and has a short fuse. Email evidence indicates he bullied Reeva. I think something on OP's iphone was of concern to Reeva and the fight started with that. She may have been reading his messages. There is certainly enough evidence to bring the iphone into play. We have no way of knowing what the argument was about. However, Reeva clearly hid herself in a locked bathroom for protection and screaming was involved.

Do we know how many phones she brought into the bathroom with her?

Nah, wasn't an accident. Not a chance.

How do we know they never got into bed that night?

You have to ask yourself, what kind of fight leads to murder in this context?

The only kind I know is DV, where the woman has decided to leave the relationship.

circumstantial evidence they never went to bed:

1) medical examiner--Reeva ate at 1am.

2) loud fight between man and woman heard 2am to 3am

3) Reeva was not going to get into a bed where her side was flanked by two fans, extension cords running everywhere, prosthetic legs, computers and other devices being charged, and clothes on the floor. She would have been trapped.

 

[Mr Fossil]

You have to ask yourself, what kind of fight leads to murder in this context?

The only kind I know is DV, where the woman has decided to leave the relationship.

circumstantial evidence they never went to bed:

1) medical examiner--Reeva ate at 1am.

2) loud fight between man and woman heard 2am to 3am

3) Reeva was not going to get into a bed where her side was flanked by two fans, extension cords running everywhere, prosthetic legs, computers and other devices being charged, and clothes on the floor. She would have been trapped.

BIB IIRC didn't one of the pathologists suggest that gastric emptying can be slowed if a person is under stress?

 

[Chelly]

BIB. IMO Because the curtains were wide open and both the bedroom and the patio lights were switched on.

That shows they may not have decided to go to sleep yet. However, they could have been in bed with iphones and ipad.

 

[BritsKate]

Could be.



You think--he puts her down and that is the last straw and she says, that's it, I'm going home, don't call me again?



But, she didn't intend to stay with him that night. He manipulated her into it.



First dinner, which she didn't intend to cook. And, then something else, which caused her to stay beyond the time when she could drive home safely.



And, it looks to me like she didn't intend being with him the next night either[present the day before, intending to go home, saying to family see you tomorrow].



They were both in town. Why wouldn't she go out to dinner with him on V-day? Unless, she had already decided, it is over?

They both had other stuff to do. And if I'm being really honest - I think Reeva was very casual for Oscar and she was seeing where it was headed. I don't think no plans are indicative of an impending break up - just a more casual relationship. I think Valentine's Day meant more to Reeva than Oscar but she also didn't want to push him into more.

For me, the speech the next day on abuse has always been too coincidental for my liking. Many feel he wasn't abusive but if that's true, he certainly shares many characteristics and behaviours indicative of an abusive personality. But abuse doesn't always manifest the same - especially emotional abuse. I think she'd been thinking about her previous abusive relationship, recognised patterns, and confronted him on it.

It's totally possible I'm superimposing my history though. I'd confronted my ex just once on his abuse - five years in - and his rage terrified me so greatly I didn't so much as whisper the word abuse for another five years.


Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[Chelly]

You have to ask yourself, what kind of fight leads to murder in this context?

The only kind I know is DV, where the woman has decided to leave the relationship.

circumstantial evidence they never went to bed:

1) medical examiner--Reeva ate at 1am.

2) loud fight between man and woman heard 2am to 3am

3) Reeva was not going to get into a bed where her side was flanked by two fans, extension cords running everywhere, prosthetic legs, computers and other devices being charged, and clothes on the floor. She would have been trapped.

BBM...For a narcissist with small-man syndrome, anger and control issues, any kind of fight can lead to murder. I know this as a fact.

The fighting could easily have started after Reeva and OP were in bed looking at his ipad and checking their iphones. This has been brought up in court. I'd like to know what was on OP's cell phone. Had he been messaging another girlfriend? Did Reeva discover this?