Trial Discussion weekend Thread #24

[minor4th]

Then his charge would have been dolus directus. . . ?

His charge was "murder" which is unlawfully and intentionally killing another. It includes dolus directus (direct intent)

 

[Gryffindor]

His charge was "murder" which is unlawfully and intentionally killing another. It includes dolus directus (direct intent)

Oh, I thought 1st officers on scene said it was immediate dolus eventualis ? Thank you

 

[soozieqtips]

In his affidavit he only mentions one time that he yelled at Reeva to call the police, and that was after he'd already shot at the door and killed her.

I fired shots at the toilet door and shouted to Reeva to phone the police.

No mention of becoming temporarily deaf from the shots and no mention of him screaming like he'd 'never heard himself scream' before.

In his testimony:

when he got to the bathroom there was nobody there.
He said he stood at the point where the bathroom door was in line with the wall.
He said he screamed at Reeva to call police and security.

That's a pretty big change from his affidavit, and that's without the additional 'whispering' to Reeva before he left the room. Now he's saying he yelled at her to call police and security (security an additional word here) before he'd even reached the toilet, before he'd already fired the shots at the door while yelling at her to call the police??

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...759350/Oscar-Pistorius-murder-trial-live.html

 

[TrueDetective]

Good recall.
Do you think Reeva may have objected to that viewing.....just a smidgen?

Who knows. She was a glamour model herself

 

[Chelly]

He was not taken to hospital for toxicology until late morning or early afternoon on the 14th. Many hours after Reeva was killed.

I don't have an explicit link, all I could find was this:http://bigstory.ap.org/article/pistorius-involved-shooting-home-woman-dead-0

'Hours later after undergoing police questioning, Pistorius left a police station accompanied by officers. He looked down as photographers snapped pictures, the hood on his gray workout jacket pulled up, covering most of his face.'

He had come from an afternoon party. I have always thought alcohol was a catalyst in his actions, it is the only thing that makes sense to me that he would so quickly and irrationally go off into a rage.

I would chalk it up again to police ineptness that a blood alcohol test was not done immediately.

This is my understanding as well. I was hoping for at least one WS member would confirm and you have.Thank you. It does not take much alcohol to ignite the fuse of the angry and self-centered.

 

[minor4th]

Oh, I thought 1st officers on scene said it was immediate dolus eventualis ? Thank you

Murder also includes dolus eventualis, but I don't remember anyone giving any testimony about this

 

[Gryffindor]

Who knows. She was a glamour model herself

She was making tea in the kitchen at the time, so wouldn't know.

 

[soozieqtips]

He was not taken to hospital for toxicology until late morning or early afternoon on the 14th. Many hours after Reeva was killed.

I don't have an explicit link, all I could find was this:http://bigstory.ap.org/article/pistorius-involved-shooting-home-woman-dead-0

'Hours later after undergoing police questioning, Pistorius left a police station accompanied by officers. He looked down as photographers snapped pictures, the hood on his gray workout jacket pulled up, covering most of his face.'

He had come from an afternoon party. I have always thought alcohol was a catalyst in his actions, it is the only thing that makes sense to me that he would so quickly and irrationally go off into a rage.

I would chalk it up again to police ineptness that a blood alcohol test was not done immediately.

Thanks, so it doesn't mean there was 'no evidence' of alcohol present, just that the tests were done so long after the event they'd have meant virtually nothing anyway.

 

[kaos]

Maybe Reeva was playing with OP's gun and that's what made him mad. We know he doesn't like anybody touching his guns.

 

[elfie]

The human heart pumps about 5 liters per minute. The human body only contains about 5 liters of blood.

The arteries in her right arm were severed. According to OP's timeline, she would have bled out long before he carried her down the steps 10 minutes after shooting her.

There would be no arterial blood splatter anywhere except the toilet stall.

He bashed the door first - screams- shot her - pulled out the pieces of the door - made calls - carried her down the steps

I put it to you, <modsnip>, to explain how the arterial blood splatter got on the walls and the couch downstairs if Reeva had been shot through the arm 10 minutes earlier. Why were there no large pools of blood in the bathroom? OP's timeline is physically impossible.

I also think this is the logical sequence of events since the ear witnesses have testified to bangs (cricket bat), followed by a woman's scream, then subsequent bangs (gun shots).

 

[TrueDetective]

She was making tea in the kitchen at the time, so wouldn't know.

According to OP

 

[molly333]

Clue from Reeva: That's what she said in her text--it's too late to safely come home.

I'm not sure how you read the clue, but to me the text meant she had been intending on coming home but lost track of time. Question is: what were they doing such that she ran out of time to come home?

I don't have exact quote of that text, either. I just remember it was something to that effect.

 

[soozieqtips]

According to OP

Exactly. According to him they were 'deeply in love' too - so deeply in love he didn't have a Valentine's Day gift for her, but he did have a vague idea of trinkets for a bracelet he didn't yet have.

 

[Gryffindor]

From the bail hearing, I think:
&#8212; Barry Bateman (@barrybateman)February 21, 2013

#OscarPistorius*Nel on his own version it's dolus eventualis. We say dolus directus - it was planned. BB

So the State maintained dolus directus?

 

[soozieqtips]

I'm not sure how you read the clue, but to me the text meant she had been intending on coming home but lost track of time. Question is: what were they doing such that she ran out of time to come home?

I don't have exact quote of that text, either. I just remember it was something to that effect.

"Hi guys, I&#8217;m too tired. It&#8217;s too far to drive. I&#8217;m sleeping at Oscar&#8217;s tonight. See you tomorrow."

http://www.news.com.au/world/reeva-...pistoriuss-house/story-fndir2ev-1226586799797

 

[minor4th]

From the bail hearing, I think:
— Barry Bateman (@barrybateman)February 21, 2013

#OscarPistorius*Nel on his own version it's dolus eventualis. We say dolus directus - it was planned. BB

So the State maintained dolus directus?

Thank you. I had not heard that before.

So yes the state is maintaining dolus directus - meaning planned, intentional. They're saying it was premeditated, which carries a higher sentencing range.

 

[Gryffindor]

According to OP

For 20 mins. Sure she wouldn't have cared less though

 

[Gryffindor]

Thank you. I had not heard that before.

So yes the state is maintaining dolus directus - meaning planned, intentional. They're saying it was premeditated, which carries a higher sentencing range.

No worries

They've definitely not proved that.

Does he walk free if there's no proof of premeditated or can they downgrade during the course of the trial and attempt to convict him on any lesser charge?

 

[minor4th]

No worries

They've definitely not proved that.

Does he walk free if there's no proof of premeditated or can they downgrade during the course of the trial and attempt to convict him on any lesser charge?

The judge can automatically consider the lesser charge of culpable homicide - which would be the equivalent of manslaughter or second degree murder, or along those lines.

So, if they don't prove premeditated murder, which I don't think they have or will, then that doesn't mean he walks.

 

[Gryffindor]

The judge can automatically consider the lesser charge of culpable homicide - which would be the equivalent of manslaughter or second degree murder, or along those lines.

So, if they don't prove premeditated murder, which I don't think they have or will, then that doesn't mean he walks.

Cheers buddy

That's different to the U.K.then.