Trial - Ross Harris #6

[Bc007]

I know I've said this before, and since we're on the topic I might as well say it again - just because JRH performed the bare minimum of being a father does not make him a great father and it does not erase all the bad things he did do - namely, leaving his son in a hot car (accidentally or on purpose) and sexting with his own son laying beside him.

JRH had a tendency to make a show out of himself and exaggerate everything. Even defense witnesses testified to this. It is more than possible (I'd even say likely) that JRH exaggerated his love of being a father. Since JRH had a tendency to use Cooper as an excuse to not get a divorce, it is also possible he used Cooper to attract women too.

gitana1 is right - the only truthful thing we'll find about JRH is what he's saying when he thinks nobody is looking.

I think it seems as if he did just as much as mom did! Where are you getting "bare minimum " from? This family hardly did things without one another! He got Cooper up and ready then to school more than she did. Neither went out often. Listen, I agree he forgot Cooper in the car and will probably be found criminally negligent however I think it's a stretch to imply it was because he was hardly involved. He checked on the child when they came home from being out. He called the school to hold breakfast so the child wouldn't be hungry. Based on testimony there hasn't been one thing that you can point to that his man didn't take equal care of this child.

This isn't directed at anyone specific but by a culmination of the messages on here I feel that some theories have now been taken as facts. There seems to be a theme of accusations that have no evidentiary foundation but have grown legs and are running a muck! Feels like a mob mentality at times. I started out thinking he was guilty so I get it. But at some point you have to step back and consider all of the information. You can still think he is guilty without creating scenarios that are unsupported. Just me.. Again not directed at only one person.

 

[Safeguard]

Talk about no comparison! Casey didn't believe she loved Caylee. She was entirely consistent in not wanting to even be around her, given the choice.

And....I see the marker has moved on Ross's love for Cooper. Now he wasn't acting for others that he did, he had just deluded himself into believing he did? And was just acting on his delusion by wanting to be with him?

And speaking of comparison, both OJ and Scott Peterson were cruel and abusive to their wives prior to the murders. SP's step sister, in her book has said as much, and Nicole Brown being physically assaulted is well documented.

 

[GA_Peach]

If the autopsy report shows Cooper's length as both 31.5" and 33", why automatically pick the longer measurement?

I thought that I just explained that. In March, Cooper was 31 inches at his check up. There have been numerous witnesses who testified to Cooper's huge and recent growth spurt. Why would I doubt their testimony?

I also believe that it is far more likely for the more straightforward measurement, his total length, to be accurate.

ETA - Does it really matter if Cooper was 31.5 inches versus 33 inches? I am not seeing the relevance.

 

[Bc007]

Right! His child never died in a car before, so he must not have done it.

How come you can believe certain things he wrote but when he says he loves his child or was in a happy marriage with the exception of sex, you can't take him at his word then? Can't have it both ways.

 

[Hope4More]

I didn't see that. If someone can direct me to the exact spot, I will take a look and if it that is correct, I'll remove it form the list of suspicious things. But frankly there have already been a couple pro-defense statements made that turned out either to be untrue or total speculation (that Ross never said leaving his son in the car was his greatest fear. He did. In his own words (his "worst" fear). Or that Ross sat in the parked car at CFA for four minutes. We don't know that he did. Since there was no phone activity in those first four minutes after leaving CFA, it is more likely he sat in traffic.) So while I am trusting your statements, some I just want to confirm.

I don't think anyone said RH sat in a parked car for 4 minutes. I know I didn't. I haven't been able to do a minute by minute chronology because the info isn't available. What I keep slapping down is the frequent assertion as fact that RH had to have forgotten Cooper in "30 seconds." That just isn't accurate.

I think i did say Ross hadn't said it was his "worst" fear, and if so, I stand corrected, with apologies, if you've reviewed the video and heard otherwise. I'm all for fact- checking, thanks for doing your share.

And, fwiw. Ross did , after all, say that AFTER he was essentially in custody for his child dying in a hot car. I don't read that forward, I read that in the context of a man trying to convince LE he cared about Cooper & was mindful enough to be aware of such dangers.

 

[arkansasmimi]

I watched. I did not see that he was impeached or that his testimony about Ross making an out of character statement to him that day, was proven to be untruthful. Maybe I missed something. All I saw was that he did not mention that statement to the detective on tape. So what? I doubt that would be the first thing he would say or think of when talking to the detective. That's a retrospect kind of thing. There was no successful impeachment that I saw and zero evidence that he was untruthful. IMO.

I would have to go back and listen. Didn't he also speak to Stoddard off record too? Considering all the after fact testimony changing after the fact with Stoddard witnesses.. I will agree to disagree. But as with the others that have been, other witnesses contradict his. LH testified that she told him that RH had went to movie and Winston name. That witness got info from media reports and colored his testimony. Raissee and Stockenger are the 2 who went to Treehouse to meet with LH.

 

[catpatrol]

I thought that I just explained that. In March, Cooper was 31 inches at his check up. There have been numerous witnesses that testified to Cooper huge and recent growth spurt. Why would I doubt their testimony?

I also believe that it is far more likely for the more straightforward measurement, his total length, to be accurate.

There have also been witnesses that said Cooper did not fit in the car seat the way the state has presented, just sayin.

 

[popsicle]

I have a great idea.... if you are going to post something that is 'evidence' then post a link with it. ty

 

[arkansasmimi]

how can she possibility remember some document from 2009? especially since the last two years have been so terrible.

IIRC that is the one that was on her computer that they extracted that how they know, but she doesn't have her computer to ref it.

 

[GA_Peach]

There have also been witnesses that said Cooper did not fit in the car seat the way the state has presented, just sayin.

That testimony doesn't matter to me. There is no dispute that Cooper was 31 inches in March. At that point in time he was beyond the acceptable height limit for his rear-facing, Chicco car seat. The car seat didn't fit him in March, and it didn't fit him at his TOD.

ETA - It was the DT pushing Cooper's recent growth spurt narrative. That leads me to believe that the DT thinks that Cooper was 33 inches at his TOD. The DT wants the jury to think that Cooper was as small as possible for as long as possible so his "height issue" with respect to the car seat is a minor one. The fact that Cooper's height was documented at 31 inches in March does not help their case.

 

[gitana1]

The defense calling LH and her mother to the stand is a prime example of why the state should have severed the texting charges! Yes, they would have still needed to be introduced as evidence since some transpired that day but most likely not at nauseum like they had been by both sides. Prosecution would have gone down that road but now it's a huge part of Ross's defense I think. He struggled for years with it and went to counseling for it on and off. Had no self control. The problem started prior to Cooper's birth yet he still went through a lot of hoops to try to conceive despite his physical desires outside of the marriage. Kind of blows a hole in states motive!!!. So what part does it play other than the most likely cause of his distraction 6/18?!! They appear to have based their entire case in chief on his wanting a child free life and his interactions with these women should prove that. Well now what?! It started before he had a child! His ex -wife says they had intimacy issues. Does it excuse his behavior - no way - but I'm sure it's makes a few jurors think they certainly wouldn't want a sexless marriage and it drove him elsewhere because he wanted the rest of the marriage. Here he tried to still make it while going outside the marriage for physical needs and potential addiction. I think it's gross but clearly having a child was important to him. The underage issue there is no excuse there so it's not worth mentioning. I just think they should have kept it separate.

As far as his secret life- I think it's clear it wasn't such a big secret. His wife and a few of the people close to them knew bits and pieces of their issues. She might not have wanted to know for sure and face it, but it is clear she addressed the parts she was forced to when they were forced in her face. Neither side asked her if his day to day treatment or interactions with her ever changed over the years. Several times she was able to point out to the jury that they shared responsibilities and worked as a team. No one has one negative thing to say about this man with the exception of LE.

Again the sexing related charges are important b/c he committed a crime by sending photos. I just think combining them with murder charges to make the jury hate him was foolish and will probably back fire now. His scorned ex - wife still grieving the loss of their only child still believes it was an accident as does the grand mother ...who in my opinion would have even less reason to defend him even if you believe LH is. If those two of all be people, can set the sex stuff aside and be objective, than it's extremely possible the jury can and will. Stupid move on the state imo.

I will say I was surprised LH or T now... Didn't mention Cooper in the lie ruined my life, trust statement. She should have and I'm sure it wasn't lost on the jury. Her friend explaining her grief after court yesterday may cancel that out.

It can either work for the defense or for the state. The state has two, parallel theories going on at once. One is motive. Wanting to be free to indulge himself can be seen as part of motive. Or, it can be seen as a distraction that caused him to forget his son. Which may fit the state's second theory - criminal negligence.

I know what common sense tells me. I know what I believe based on the facts. I think a lot points to Ross intentionally leaving his kid in the car. But when it comes down to pure evidence, is it beyond a reasonable doubt? I don't think the state has shown that. How about criminal negligence as the underlying base for felony murder? Or involuntary manslaughter? The jury instructions will help us there. And Dr. Diamond's testimony is going to be crucial. Everything may bank on him. If he is effective as he has been in other cases, Ross may walk. But I'm not sure this case is like those other cases. In not one were the parents focused on, aware of or watching things having to do with hot car deaths, shortly before their kid died in a hot car, and actually taking precautions against such a thing because it was their "worst fear". It comes down to whether the jury feels his conduct was criminally negligent at the least.

 

[Hope4More]

Yes. Except that's clearly and 100% NOT how Ross Harris felt. In his very own words, he stated that shortly before his son died, he watched a news report about a dad who left his kid to die in the car, who became an advocate for hot car death prevention, and that as a result, Ross began making a practice of "looking back twice" because the "worst fear" of him was leaving his son in the car. So clearly Ross felt that it could happen to him and supposedly was so worried about that that he began a practice of looking again to prevent that from happening. But despite that, and despite the gruesome reminder five days before Cooper died, that Ross saw of what happens when you leave a dependent creature in the car, Ross did just that, failing suddenly to "look again" and utterly forgetting his son despite having not one call or text come in or go out during the extremely short time he left the CFA and got, at least, to the intersection, where he had to make the decision as to which direction he was going to go.

No comparison.

Really, with all due respect, you're cherry picking which of RH's statements to LE you choose to believe, and disregarding some obvious counter narrative, including RH needing to convince LE it was an accident.

 

[arkansasmimi]

Thinking it's possible Leanna wanted to testify as much for herself, or more, than any desire to help Ross.

She's been under suspicion from the day her baby died, and to gauge from some of what I've read here, I imagine she's had to contend regularly with people being extremely ugly to her. Like the incredibly vicious person who saw fit to leave a note for her on Cooper's grave telling her-- you never loved him.

And I very much think she knew the DT would give her a chance to tell Ross, in front of the world, what she couldn't until her part was done-- you ruined my life, humiliated me, and finally, I can leave you behind and never see you again.

Doubt very much Leanna will be there when he's sentenced

BUT she did that after she did all the other testimony. That is why I think her testimony was truthful. She did not and does not think it was anything but accidental. And I agree with you on doing it to set straight for her as well. This was start of real healing for her. Did you notice the kinda change of the State how everything is going to the "darkside" nothing anymore about the fake searches and so forth. Kinda like they are changing up a little bit.

**Phil Holloway said on that CourtChatter podcast that just his opinion that once verdict is found that Staly will do the sentencing back in Cobb County. That they will only be in Glynn for verdict. I dont know how that works.

 

[minor4th]

Seriously? I can't believe a lawyer truly believes that. So someone has to have evidence of being a bad parent to deliberately do something bad to a child? Does the same logic go towards husbands whose wives disappear? They seemed like a good husband and there is no evidence, does that indicate their wife just walked off? Priests who are accused of abusing children? No evidence he was a bad priest. That indicates they never touched a child? What about cops who are accused of lying on stand? There is no evidence Stoddard was ever anything but a good cop. You must be wrong about him, there was no evidence, so that indicates he was telling the truth.

I find that twisted logic disturbing, to be honest.

:facepalm:

Well, we don't need to start making this personal

Let me ask you a logic question:

Which of the following fathers is more likely to have intentionally murdered his 2-year-old son:

Father #1: The child was an accident, and F1 was not ready for children. After the child's birth, F1 did not participate in any of the child rearing. When left alone with the child F1 locked the child in his room alone while he went across the street to drink beer and play horseshoes with the neighbor. F1 refused to go anywhere in public with his son and F1 often yelled at the child for causing messes and crying. F1 was cheating on his wife and sexting minors.

Father #2: F2 and his wife wanted a child and tried for a year before she got pregnant. F3 participated in every aspect of child rearing - from changing diapers to bathing to bedtime routines. F2 made a point of having special daddy/son time with his child 2 or 3 times a month. F2 took his son to restaurants, baseball games and other family activities. F2 bragged about and talked about his son constantly. Everyone who knew F2 and his child agreed that F2 loved his son very much and was a good and attentive father. F2 was cheating on his wife and sexting minors.

 

[catpatrol]

That testimony doesn't matter to me. There is no dispute that Cooper was 31 inches in March. At that point in time he was outside the acceptable height range for his rear-facing, Chicco car seat. The car seat didn't fit him in March, and it didn't fit at his TOD.

Whether he was too tall for the manufacturers guidelines is irrelevant to me. I don't think it has anything to do with whether Ross intentionally left Cooper.

The fact that the state created a reconstruction of the scene based on all kinds of bad measurements is relevant to me. I can't trust that their model is accurate.

It's funny how an inch or two matters when people say RH must have seen Cooper because he was so close, but not when it comes to the doll that the state claims is within 1/2".

 

[Hope4More]

BUT she did that after she did all the other testimony. That is why I think her testimony was truthful. She did not and does not think it was anything but accidental. And I agree with you on doing it to set straight for her as well. This was start of real healing for her. Did you notice the kinda change of the State how everything is going to the "darkside" nothing anymore about the fake searches and so forth. Kinda like they are changing up a little bit.

**Phil Holloway said on that CourtChatter podcast that just his opinion that once verdict is found that Staly will do the sentencing back in Cobb County. That they will only be in Glynn for verdict. I dont know how that works.

I believed her to be truthful, and I know that people rarely act for a single reason. She had many, imo.

 

[gitana1]

I don't think anyone said RH sat in a parked car for 4 minutes. I know I didn't. I haven't been able to do a minute by minute chronology because the info isn't available. What I keep slapping down is the frequent assertion as fact that RH had to have forgotten Cooper in "30 seconds." That just isn't accurate.

I think i did say Ross hadn't said it was his "worst" fear, and if so, I stand corrected, with apologies, if you've reviewed the video and heard otherwise. I'm all for fact- checking, thanks for doing your share.

And, fwiw. Ross did , after all, say that AFTER he was essentially in custody for his child dying in a hot car. I don't read that forward, I read that in the context of a man trying to convince LE he cared about Cooper & was mindful enough to be aware of such dangers.

The BBM is a strrrrreetttttcccchh again to me. He had details. He showed he was well aware of the danger involved and how to prevent it.

I think you did infer that he sat parked in his car for four minutes. if he did not, it is a fact that in about 40 seconds, from the time he left the CFA parking lot, to the turn, he forgot the kid he just strapped in and kissed. Despite zero distractions during that time. The traffic would not have occurred from the parking lot to the intersection, but after. And as there is no evidence of phone actvitity until what, 9:24 or 9:25, it is less likely he just sat in a parked car at the CFA for several minutes.

 

[minor4th]

Does that clip show the part where it was testified to that he learned about Ross going to the movies after the fact?

It does not.

 

[arkansasmimi]

Quote Originally Posted by Safeguard View Post
bbm
Maybe, "Destroyed my life" covered that?

Like I said, I was sad she never mentioned Cooper at this point.

Twice she said he destroyed her life, neither of those times were her baby mentioned. Yes I do believe Cooper was included in the destruction of her life. She didn't expanded on it, but emphasised her humiliation and fear of trusting anyone again in her life - she's talking about a man there, obviously.

I have not bashed her on the stand.

This trial is about justice for Cooper - her son - unless I'm missing something.

RBBM. Because she does not believe that RH destroyed Coopers life. That would mean that he killed him on purpose. She does not believe that. It was an accident .
Finding out about the cheating destroyed her and she may never be able to trust again. She sees and believes that these are 2 separate issues. An accident that caused the death of their much loved child and his cheating on her. She knew about the sexting//addiction prior. And he had been in therapy. Just not the prostitute and sexual acts with others. JMHO

ETA: This trial is about the 8 charges against Justin Ross Harris. Sexting charges have nothing to do with Justice for anyone. JMHO Those individuals were willing participants. Those 2 minors at the time, were harmed or a need Justice . JMHO

 

[Hope4More]

The BBM is a strrrrreetttttcccchh again to me. He had details. He showed he was well aware of the danger involved and how to prevent it.

I think you did infer that he sat parked in his car for four minutes. if he did not, it is a fact that in about 40 seconds, from the time he left the CFA parking lot, to the turn, he forgot the kid he just strapped in and kissed. Despite zero distractions during that time. The traffic would not have occurred from the parking lot to the intersection, but after. And as there is no evidence of phone actvitity until what, 9:24 or 9:25, it is less likely he just sat in a parked car at the CFA for several minutes.

This is why I love informed debate. I missed my own inference, because I focused only on the fact the "30 seconds " couldn't be proven.

Utilizing the inference you've pointed out, I have a larger inference to infer, which is that Ross sitting in the car for a few minutes would be entirely consistent with the scenario of his doing everything he could to delay arriving at work for that scheduled what-fer he was facing. He left home late and went into CFA instead of driving through. Perhaps he was timing his arrival to work, and was aiming for 9:30.

BTW. There was traffic to contend with from lot to Uturn, Uturn out into the road, and all the way to the intersection, as LE videos demonstrated. The only non trafficked part was after the intersection into the Treehouse parking lot.