Trial Thread 10 May 2012 - Judge's Instructions and maybe deliberations!

[nursebeeme]

RaffertyLFP: Court resumes Heeney recounts McClintic's evidence of Tori's murder

RaffertyLFP: Heeney goes over McClintic's first statement accusing Rafferty from May 24, 2009

RaffertyLFP: Heeney will next discuss "planned first degree murder" and "constructive first degree murder

The crown must prove the murder was deliberate and planned for the first path.

Judge says manslaughter can only be considered if the jury is sure beyond a reasonable doubt that McClintic swung the hammer.

this is where I have problems with too much information: the autopsy said it was likely that the blows came from a hammer.. and this is a circumstantial case yet the judge is telling them this and that about the hammer....

I have never seen anything like this.. I am not sure if this is normal in Canada but this is like force feeding here especially considering this is a circumstantial case (like most are)

 

[~n/t~]

Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Justice Heeney defining for the jury what a 'deliberate act' involves.

Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Justice Heeney still describing for the jury the process of using the extensive 'decision trees' provided for deliberations.

 

[Flowercb]

maybe tears or spit ???

Thanks giantalking head--and urine, feces, I don't know--a pathologist may be able to clarify what is reasonable. MOO.

 

[swedie]

Snipped until I reread what was posting in regards to the findings. HtH
Tori's blood most certainly!!

Jurors in the courtroom.

Heeney corrects Gowdey's closing, he said Tori's blood was on the gym bag. That's possible, but not determined, he adds

RaffertyLFP: Jury in Heeney clarifies Crown's final argument, Gowdey said DNA on gym bag was Tori's blood, Heeney says that DNA not confirmed as blood

 

[Alison]

this is where I have problems with too much information: the autopsy said it was likely that the blows came from a hammer.. and this is a circumstantial case yet the judge is telling them this and that about the hammer....

I have never seen anything like this.. I am not sure if this is normal in Canada but this is like force feeding here especially considering this is a circumstantial case (like most are)

I am not sure, but I believe the expert said that the blows were from a hammer. JMO.

 

[Sailor Bug]

Going over new decision trees.

RaffertyLFP: Heeney goes into the definition of "planning and deliberate" as it applies to murder

 

[~n/t~]

Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Judge still taking jury through decision trees. Options they have depending if they think #Rafferty was principal, or aided/abetted

 

[KMouse]

As much as I despised HLN during the Casey Anthony trial I would really like to have a verdict watch ticker on my TV right now as well as alerts on my cell phone.

 

[snoofer]

this is where I have problems with too much information: the autopsy said it was likely that the blows came from a hammer.. and this is a circumstantial case yet the judge is telling them this and that about the hammer....

I have never seen anything like this.. I am not sure if this is normal in Canada but this is like force feeding here especially considering this is a circumstantial case (like most are)

ya makes me think why doesn't the judge just decide his fate with all these rules. moo

 

[~n/t~]

Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
The options for the jury, depending on the their decisions: Not Guilty, Manslaughter, Second Degree murder, First Degree murder

 

[Salem]

Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Judge says manslaughter can only be considered if the jury is sure beyond a reasonable doubt that McClintic swung the hammer.



UGH!

I'm behind on the tweets - but don't let the decision tree confuse you. It sounds to me like there are numerous dt's.

At least 3 of them should be for the major charges - 1st degree murder; sexual assault and kidnapping.

For example, the 1st Degree Murder will be broken into a couple of parts or decision analysis paths/trees:
1 in case the jury finds that MR actively premediated the murder
1 in case the jury finds that MR was an active participant in the kidnapping, which resulted in the death of TS.
1 in case the jury finds that MR was a dupe - which is probably the one that is leading to instruction on the lesser included charge of manslaughter.

The jury will have several ways to reach each verdict, depending on the decisions they reach at each step of the way. Basically an "if this, then that" and move to the next step under that type of analysis.

Hope that helps. If we had the papers in front of us and could follow along, I think everybody would find that it is not confusing at all. Just following a template.

Salem

 

[Sailor Bug]

<modsnip>.

Thank you swedie xo

It sure will be interesting to see all the arguments Derstine made in court...out of view from the public

 

[Sailor Bug]

Heeney reminding the jury of key evidence surrounding Tori's death.

RaffertyLFP: Heeney gets into concept of "constructive" first degree murder an alternative if the jury not satisfied of "planned and deliberate" murder

 

[swedie]

I'm not worried Matou! I'm sure the jurors got the whole understanding that it was Tori's blood and there is no reason other then an assault (more likely sexual) that produced Tori's DNA in MR's vehicle.

I am 100% in belief the jurors will find MR guilty on all three charges. I say eight hours or less until they reach a verdict. BTW I'm being generous on my eight hours Of course this is just my opinion. I was totally impressed with Gowdey's closing arguments. He laid it out so meticulously and injected the evidence as he went along to collaborate with his story. I'm even convinced now that it was quite likely MR was the one who probably kick, stomp and beat Tori with the hammer. MR is sick and disgusting IMHO. The MASTERMIND for sure.

Don't worry people: There was DNA on the bag, may not be Tori's blood but is consistent with Tori. JMO

 

[HoldOnTight]

this is where I have problems with too much information: the autopsy said it was likely that the blows came from a hammer.. and this is a circumstantial case yet the judge is telling them this and that about the hammer....

I have never seen anything like this.. I am not sure if this is normal in Canada but this is like force feeding here especially considering this is a circumstantial case (like most are)

I wouldn't be too concerned. I believe the judge is doing this to account for the possibility of the jury finding MR not guilty of kidnapping and sexual assault for instance, but guilty in some capacity, for the murder.

When he gets to constructive 1st degree, everything should be clear.

IMO.

 

[Tahorn]

Were any of those children made to lay down in the back of the car with a coat over them?

Of course not.

However my point was, having an unknown child in one’s car does not automatically imply one knows that child has been kidnapped.

 

[Sailor Bug]

Heeney tells jurors he is "well along" in his charge, and should be finished by 4:30 or 5.

Deliberations will start after dinner.

 

[swedie]

Steven D'Souza &#8207; @cbcsteve
Another break, this time 15 minutes. Judge aware of jury's ability to retain information coming at them


Avery Moore &#8207; @AveryFreeFMNews
Justice Heeney is moving through a summary of evidence on #Rafferty's post-offence conduct. Evidence is circumstantial, he told the jury.

I'm glad Judge Heeny made this point clear regarding circumstantial evidence. Something that was badly missing during the judge's instructions during the CA trial in MOO.

 

[~n/t~]

I'm behind on the tweets - but don't let the decision tree confuse you. It sounds to me like there are numerous dt's.

At least 3 of them should be for the major charges - 1st degree murder; sexual assault and kidnapping.

For example, the 1st Degree Murder will be broken into a couple of parts or decision analysis paths/trees:
1 in case the jury finds that MR actively premediated the murder
1 in case the jury finds that MR was an active participant in the kidnapping, which resulted in the death of TS.
1 in case the jury finds that MR was a dupe - which is probably the one that is leading to instruction on the lesser included charge of manslaughter.

The jury will have several ways to reach each verdict, depending on the decisions they reach at each step of the way. Basically an "if this, then that" and move to the next step under that type of analysis.

Hope that helps. If we had the papers in front of us and could follow along, I think everybody would find that it is not confusing at all. Just following a template.

Salem

Thanks Salem. Perhaps the tweets are making it confusing. One tweet said if the jury believes beyond a reasonable doubt McClintic wielded the hammer then it's manslaughter. But in the Crown's closing, they said it didn't matter who wielded the hammer. KWIM?

That is what is confusing me.

Manslaughter is a lesser charge and I DON'T want the jury getting all this information and if they doubt who wielded the hammer, they will go with the lesser charge. Hope that makes sense.

 

[myzzy]

GOod afternoon everyone and ty for the tweets today

I hope we are able to see the "tree" the jury is using, I would like to read through it and follow it to see where i would stand if i was on the jury .