Trial Thread, May 1, 2012 Defense begins it case in chief

[Sailor Bug]

ok so a week before the final verdict is reached?

Mike Knoll: - it's impossible to determine how long the jury could take to reach an unanimous decision on the three charges.

Found this useful for deliberation facts: http://blog.torontodefencelawyers.com/tag/juries-in-canada/

 

[snoofer]

that is what I am thinking too Salem.. he didn't want to open any doors for cross by the Crown.

And what he had that he felt comfortable with cross was nothing..

MTR may have refused to plead for either lawyer but Derstine was still willing to take it to trial as it is MTR's right but knowing his client had little defense.

So maybe both thought he should plead, but one refused to be his lawyer if he didn't listen and one decided to still represent him even if he didn't plead. And maybe MTR wanted to leave the idea of testifying open depending on how the trial was going...and decided....hmmmm....no. MOO

 

[myzzy]

..... If Tori was targeted. How would TLM know a mother or guardian wasn't outside waiting for her?

Exactly and if there is a Juror buying into this i would hope these questions would be bantered. What is reasonable and believable. That TLM was so sick and twisted she would walk right into a school to snatch a child while poor innocent MTR waited outside per her instruction as was just a shocked horrified duped chauffeur.

To be targeted one would have to know who they were kidnapping, I do not and i repeat DO NOT believe Tori's family are not responsible for Tori's death but there are several coincidences that make me wonder if maybe there are links that will later come out once this is all over.

I do not know if there are connection but if there are, this could explain her not worrying about someone waiting for Tori?

 

[Flowercb]

Hope so! Hope they can end today and start deliberations but I doubt it. Derstine will probably want more time.

For What? He should probably have his closing argument made already. Had enough time with just one witness to prepare.MOO

 

[Salem]

No proof the teacher could not have made an oversight that day either. She testified to the best of her recollection .... but ... I hope the fact that she broke down crying on the stand does not leave room for her questioning herself, deep down inside? MOO

To me - the difference is that the teacher TALKED to Tori - she remembers the conversation, kwim? Different from just observing someone, while you are distracted getting your own kids in the car, etc.

Salem

 

[Ardy]

What exactly are you implying? That the teacher lied? I am not sure I understand what it is you are saying. I agree we should not make fun of the gramma. However I believe if the teacher says that TS left the school alone that she left the school alone. I believe that the Gramma's memories have been altered as she has watched the video over and over and read information in the paper. I believe an expert witness in this field would testify that her memories are warped due to the conditions imposed on her. I also believe there would be some sort of surveilence of her entering the school IMO.

I am not implying anything.

The grandmother clearly saw TLM go into the school.

She notified the police as soon as she heard about the abduction.....twice.

She saw the videos "after" she was interviewed by the police.

I would like to know how TLM could be in the school wandering the halls and nobody saw her there..........in a big white puffy jacket??????

Was TLM in the school helping VS get dressed?

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/05/07/9380111-sun.html

Her parents expressed surprise yesterday at how their little girl, known for being "pokey," made it off the school grounds so fast with a stranger no one noticed.

The videotape from the high school shows Tori and the unidentified woman walking north on Fyfe at 3:32 p.m., about two minutes after the girl left school.

"That seems very strange," McDonald said. When they lived two doors from the school, her daughter didn't get home until about 3:45 p.m. she said. "She's pokey. She takes her time putting her coat on. She talks to all her friends. I found it very, very odd that at 3:32 she was fully dressed, had her bag and was up the hill."

Stafford said he can't believe parents, bus drivers, classmates and others watched Tori leave with a perfect stranger without noticing something amiss.

"Somebody has had to see something. Now, I'd just like somebody to start talking and we can bring out daughter home."

JMO..................

 

[nursebeeme]

To me - the difference is that the teacher TALKED to Tori - she remembers the conversation, kwim? Different from just observing someone, while you are distracted getting your own kids in the car, etc.

Salem

exactly... The teacher also KNEW Tori...

 

[snoofer]

So what does that mean for the case? Will the jury go into deliberations soon since Derstine only called one witness?

Mike Knoll: @guest - I believe it will take time to prepare closings and the judge needs time to prepare his charge to the jury - which could also take a day to deliver.

didn't they have all weekend to prepare closing? My gosh they only called one witness; what work was that??? (Rolls eyes) MOO

 

[Sillybilly]

We won't know until more info comes out, but IMO Derstine had so very little to work with, that MTR might not even be able to appeal on the grounds of ineffective counsel, i.e. any review of the facts to try to support an appeal would find that no other lawyer could have done any more than DD >> "Appeal Denied".

Speaking of which ... if there is an immediate appeal launched, is there still a publication ban on the info we have not heard yet?

 

[~n/t~]

oh that is true... they will want time to prepare closings... so most likely not this afternoon....

So why didn't they send the jury home instead of an extended lunch break? He said he only had one witness and that was it.

What will they do this afternoon?

 

[OhSoCurious]

BBM

What about all of the other people in and outside of the school who didn't see TLM go in/out? I don't believe it was an oversight on the teacher's part at all. Had they called more witnesses to testify to that, then I would believe it.

They just said on the live news at noon that the Grandmother DID NOT want to testify for defense. I feel she testified with full intent and integrity. MOO

 

[crazyladi]

The fact his family isnt there and hasnt been there the whole time is now clear because none of them were witnesses for the defence. I think they knew he was guilty and dont want anything to do with them, or I can be open minded and say they didnt want to be hounded by the press or identified. However I believe they knew the type of person he was and believe he is guilty of this disgusting murder of a child.

 

[~n/t~]

We won't know until more info comes out, but IMO Derstine had so very little to work with, that MTR might not even be able to appeal on the grounds of ineffective counsel, i.e. any review of the facts to try to support an appeal would find that no other lawyer could have done any more than DD >> "Appeal Denied".

Speaking of which ... if there is an immediate appeal launched, is there still a publication ban on the info we have not heard yet?

Good question

 

[Bravo]

MTR may have refused to plead for either lawyer but Derstine was still willing to take it to trial as it is MTR's right but knowing his client had little defense.

So maybe both thought he should plead, but one refused to be his lawyer if he didn't listen and one decided to still represent him even if he didn't plead. And maybe MTR wanted to leave the idea of testifying open depending on how the trial was going...and decided....hmmmm....no. MOO

Agree. We are aware of the CSI effect perhaps we are just as guilty wanting The Perry Mason moment effect LOL Derstine only had what he had to work with and we have no idea how difficult Rafferty may have been as a Client.

 

[JayFriend]

bbm

You're absolutely right nurse.
Not making a plea deal was aother big mistake Derstine made

guess Derstine will be running something by Heeney...right through lunch

jmo

Maybe he did try, but the Crown felt they had a slam dunk and didn't want to give MTR any break.

 

[crazyladi]

They just said on the live news at noon that the Grandmother DID NOT want to testify for defense. I feel she testified with full intent and integrity. MOO

Agreed however she wasnt a reliable witness due to two interviews where the information she brought forth was different. JMO

 

[Alison]

I am not implying anything.

The grandmother clearly saw TLM go into the school.

She notified the police as soon as she heard about the abduction.....twice.

She saw the videos "after" she was interviewed by the police.

I would like to know how TLM could be in the school wandering the halls and nobody saw her there..........in a big white puffy jacket??????

Was TLM in the school helping VS get dressed?

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/05/07/9380111-sun.html

Her parents expressed surprise yesterday at how their little girl, known for being "pokey," made it off the school grounds so fast with a stranger no one noticed.

The videotape from the high school shows Tori and the unidentified woman walking north on Fyfe at 3:32 p.m., about two minutes after the girl left school.

"That seems very strange," McDonald said. When they lived two doors from the school, her daughter didn't get home until about 3:45 p.m. she said. "She's pokey. She takes her time putting her coat on. She talks to all her friends. I found it very, very odd that at 3:32 she was fully dressed, had her bag and was up the hill."

Stafford said he can't believe parents, bus drivers, classmates and others watched Tori leave with a perfect stranger without noticing something amiss.

"Somebody has had to see something. Now, I'd just like somebody to start talking and we can bring out daughter home."

JMO..................

Respectfully bolded my me. That is what I ask myself. That is also why I come to the conclusion that TLM did not enter the school MOO. TS was rushing that day because she had a movie date with some girls in her new house!! I would have been quite excited myself when I was her age. MOO. Between the Gramma and Teacher, I would weigh heavily in favour of the teachers testimony, as oppsed to the Grammas.
I also believe gramma clearly saw someone enter the school, it just was not TLM IMO

 

[snoofer]

Good question

not sure if anything to appeal; I mean the defense cannot lie or make up a defense..it has to be based on fact. AND maybe defense could find no one to get up on the stand and say anything that would be defensive of MTR. Can't knit a witness :O) MOO

 

[Tink]

When the teacher said "she went out the door" did she mean the door of the school or of the classroom? Maybe Tori met TLM in the hall?

If you believe the grandmother, maybe TLM started to go in the school, saw some teachers standing around and decided that might get her in trouble, and went back outside to wait for an unattended child?

If you think she targetted Tori, how did she know that on this day, Tori would be walking alone?

Do you think possibly MR asked her to find him a young girl, and TLM remembered having met Tori so went after her? But still, how would she know Tori would be walking alone for the first time ever?

Honestly, it makes the most sense to me that she was looking for any little girl alone, and because Tori had gone back for her earrings, she came out on her own (her classmates already gone). She invited Tori to come see puppies. I imagine that if it had turned out Tori's mother was waiting for her down the block, TLM would have just quickly walked away.

Tink

 

[Alison]

A question. Can the Crown recall witnesses before closing. I would call the teacher to drive home that TS left alone. JMO