Trial Thread, Weekend Discussion May 4-5, 2012 Waiting for Closing Arguments

[Wondergirl]

Anyone else think Derstine wasted his opportunity to close last?

Pretty big gamble, practically remaining silent.


JMO

 

[otto]

I'm not sure missing clothes is evidence of anythiing, but if the Judge did allow it for consideration, he cannot allow the Crown to assert the missing clothes are indications of a sexual assault, without allowing the defense to offer alternative reasons for the missing clothes.

JMO..........

It's a little late for the defence to offer evidence that Victoria voluntarily stripped naked from the waist down.

 

[Macright]

Yes MR did have a knack for pulling the wool over others eyes, he said all the right things to make himself sound like a good catch. JMO

I agree but you know he is not alone in that department...many men have pulled the wool over other peoples eyes and women too I might add...that goes on daily and I bet if you thought about it you know someone whether male or female that was good at that...that in itself does not constitute a murderer or rapist...I would say what they are but I am not permitted to use a derogatory word...just saying.... JMO JMO JMO

 

[Macright]

It's a little late for the defence to offer evidence that Victoria voluntarily stripped naked from the waist down.

well OTTO if I heard Dirk trying to use that defence I would say the man would need to rethink his profession... god I give him more credit than that....just saying...JMO JMO JMO

 

[antiquegirl]

In my view, the last witness for the defense will be a big part of Derstine's opening. She was there......she saw TLM walk behind the teachers and right into the front door of the building.

She drove to the school, so her vision is fine.

She saw the very same woman.......TLM........walking along the sidewalk.

Unless TLM has an identical twin, who was also wearing a white puffy jacket, who was also at the school that day at the same time...........and walked into the front doors of the building..........TLM walked in to the front doors of the school looking for TS.....no doubt in my mind.......or I think the jurors.

TLM also denied the woman's statement she was walking quickly with TS following.

That is an obvious lie and supports the witness testimony over TLMs.

From there.......Derstine is going to show how each piece of evidence shows TLM had planned the abduction and lied all the way to Mount Forest.

JMO........

(RSBM)

ITA. I've said it before but I have to say it again. If there had been even one other woman wearing a white jacket picking up a child at that school on that day, LE would have found her and ruled her out. If they were doing a thorough investigation of this witness's claim, they would have checked into every female who picked up a child at OSPS on April 8th. Had they found any who may have been mistaken for TLM, the Crown would have had them take the stand to raise doubt about this testimony. He did not.

I own a minivan. You sit higher in them than most cars. The view is excellent.

JMO

 

[Macright]

Anyone else think Derstine wasted his opportunity to close last?

Pretty big gamble, practically remaining silent.


JMO

not really...wasted his opportunity that is...his one and only witness torn some holes in the crowns evidence....smart move on Dirks part I think...because both will give closing's on the same day, it doesn't matter who goes first..the jury doesn't have a short memory and they will take it all in...not just the last word, so to speak... it was a good move on his part not to try his closing on Friday because of the two days in between but IMO it is neither here or there who closes last...both will have a bearing on the jury...JMO JMO....nothing to worry about there....just saying.........

 

[Tahorn]

Yes I am having a hard time with some of this as well. I have tried to behave because I enjoy this website. Sometimes I do get caught up however, I move on and just try to reason with myself about others reasoning. It is quite frustrating though, when you can clearly see that the sky is blue and someone wil argue that it is green etc.

While I am the opposite, I enjoy the debate ... At the end of the day I learn a little more on how others think and why ... I find great comfort in knowing that we are able to discuss our differences in an adult manor without fear of prosecution. Thanks to all for participating, even though it is difficult at times.

 

[Macright]

(RSBM)

ITA. I've said it before but I have to say it again. If there had been even one other woman wearing a white jacket picking up a child at that school on that day, LE would have found her and ruled her out. If they were doing a thorough investigation of this witness's claim, they would have checked into every female who picked up a child at OSPS on April 8th. Had they found any who may have been mistaken for TLM, the Crown would have had them take the stand to raise doubt about this testimony. He did not.

I own a minivan. You sit higher in them than most cars. The view is excellent.

JMO

not only that AG...I believe that because the whole town was aware of a white jacket person in video anyone that had gone into that school that day wearing a white jacket would have gone to the police to identify themselves so they wouldn't be under any suspicion...and just so someone else did't finger them...remember how they fingered TM & her best friend with a white jacket... so that leads me to believe that the only one who entered that school that day was no other than the infamous TLM...JMO JMO

 

[roseofsharon]

respectfully...are you asking me a question or are you suggesting I consider MR a caring considerate person or are you just making your own statement... ...otherwise I don't believe I left anything out...JMO

In your original post, you don't mention the fact that MR was part of a clean up and cover up, so just wondering why not mention what we know to be true as stated by MR's defence.

Yes, I am making my own statement that it means something that MR participated in the above. MOO

Footnote: Means he was not caring nor considerate, just covering his own.

 

[Macright]

While I am the opposite, I enjoy the debate ... At the end of the day I learn a little more on how others think and why ... I find great comfort in knowing that we are able to discuss our differences in an adult manor without fear of prosecution. Thanks to all for participating, even though it is difficult at times.

me too..love the role of arm chair detective...good past time when other daily things don't get in the way...just have to say nothing anyone says on here one way or the other bothers me in the least.. this trial...well it is just mainly general interest to me..either way the outcome will have no bearing on my life and I will carry on...love a debate and seeing others points of view...never have tried to convince anyone over in my court...that's not why I post...to each his own I say..I do enjoy reading posts that are on the same wave link as me because it makes me think, hey someone else actually sees things the way I do so..that I enjoy... carry on.....just saying....JMO JMO...

 

[Jezbel]

IMO we know nothing, zilch what MR told his lawyer..his lawyer has not given his closing statement as yet the fact that he did not take the stand means dilly squat to me.. I have heard nothing from the defence as yet to what MR will be using as a defence...but from what I have heard so far from the crown..well lets just say if MR is found quilty on some of that evidence then there is something wrong with our system.. I don't expect a video of the actual murder etc.. but I would have expected some concrete evidence that a crime was about to take place.... seeing video's of MR in a car proves nothing to me...seeing TLM walking with TS and a witness testifying that she did indeed see her enter the school and then walking with TS and of course witness #2 that also saw her means a lot to me...TLM and her tall tale of what transpired and what role each played means nothing to me...TLM confessing to be the murderer means something to me....just saying...MOO but I am not judge or jury at this trial but I do hope that there will be a couple on that jury that will question things as I have...I would like to think that....JMO

Guilty on any of the charges? Do you think he is innocent of them all, just curious?

We don't know yet what the closing arguments and the judges charge will be, but I think all that you mentioned above will be told to be taken into consideration by the jury. They can't come up with alternate theories of what they think may have happened like people here do, they have to follow the judges instruction and evidence presented. I would think there is something wrong with our system of he was acquired. Jmo of course.

ETA: I just caught up on the thread and see you answered the question of not thinking he is innocent on all counts

 

[giantalkinghead]

Agreed that it is not logical to do any of that, but human nature is still relevant. Criminals committing crimes in partnership do so with a knowledge each is just as culpable, therefore trusting the other would not turn the other in ... Gang members are forced to commit crimes to insure there loyalty, mobs control there members with fear of death for crossing them, rats are the worst of the worst, while killing someone is acceptable ... I don't believe things happened the way the crown presented it ... Not saying he is innocent ... Just don't believe it happened the way the LE presented, and that is the question the jury is presented ... For me Human nature for self preservation trumps

Wow... how very true !! The MOST unfortunate thing is.... I believe the Crown presented the best case that they could ! There just wasn't enough hard evidence for them...sadly. TLM .... was the best they had.... now THAT is a sad situation indeed !!!

 

[antiquegirl]

Actually TLM was not going to turn him in. He went to far when he said she would do anything for a little bit of love. His arrogance cost him the trust of his partner.JMO
I also want to address his needing TLM as a partner. Well he surely was not going to be the one to take the risk of approaching the school to kidnap a little girl. No one really looked twice when it was TLM, but I bet you many would have noticed him leaving with TS. He also got TLM to enter into HD and purchase the hammer and garbage bags. The only places he got out was, Timmies and at an ATM. Both places very non-conspicuos. Coffee can not be a murder weapon, so therefore he took that risk. Also at BA's he had to follow through, he certainly was not going to send TLM in and be stuck with the kid in case a cruiser pulled up. He also trusted TLM to keep the kid quiet while he made the deal. Therefore he very much needed to have a partner. Also he needed someone to experience it with. Someone to talk about it with after and feel the rush with. Also he is a coward who needed someone else to do the deed with.
All of this is JMO.

(RSBM)

IMO, this is the big stretch. Why would he need to do that at all? Stranger abductions of children happen (although not as often as one would think here) without partners all the time. He didn't have to approach any school, especially that school. Look around. I've been doing it for three years. There are unaccompanied kids walking, playing, and riding their bikes everywhere you go.

If he indeed had this fantasy, all he had to do was cruise a park, a playground, or any street, even in a rural area. Why kidnap a random child from a school in your own home town and transport her out into the country to assault and murder? What was the rush? He could have driven around the Guelph or Mount Forest area any time and found a vulnerable child. Instead, he got some teenage junkie he barely knew to kidnap a kid in broad daylight from inside a school with witnesses all about? It's risky as hell and makes no sense.

I posted this before. 90% of non-family abductions are by men alone. He did not need TLM or anyone else. He was wily and physically strong. He was familiar with the Mount Forest area. He very well could have done this by himself - IF it had been his idea.

JMO

 

[Jezbel]

I have a question, because TLM listened to Nerco and you know of course that has something to do with her violent tendencies and the defence suggested she was listening to him before the abduction, you know it made her all crazy and want to kidnap and brutally murder a child, well wouldn't the writer of these lyrics have the same tendencies, wonder if when he writes a song he then goes out and murders someone?

That defence theory totally blows my mind and is absolutely ludicrous, I hope we don't hear more about Nerco in closing but I have a feeling we will *sigh*

 

[roseofsharon]

IMO, TLM did not enter the school, especially via the front door right by the school office. TLM was brazen, but IMO not to this extent.

I would think that all women wearing ANY type of white coat that day, who were on the school property or Fyfe Ave. or even in the general vicintiy, would have come forward to LE to have them rule them out and carry on their search. IMO LE would not have had to seek these women out.

MOO

 

[Sillybilly]

I think the defense was as effective as it could have been, given the restricted budget they had and the high probability that any witnesses involved in illegal activity wouldn't step forward to testify on MR's behalf.

<rsbm>

Catching up here, so this may have been addressed already:

The defence could have subpoened anyone that could support MTR. Whether they were involved in illegal activity or not, it is not up to the witness whether they wish to step forward.

 

[antiquegirl]

not only that AG...I believe that because the whole town was aware of a white jacket person in video anyone that had gone into that school that day wearing a white jacket would have gone to the police to identify themselves so they wouldn't be under any suspicion...and just so someone else did't finger them...remember how they fingered TM & her best friend with a white jacket... so that leads me to believe that the only one who entered that school that day was no other than the infamous TLM...JMO JMO

Very good point. I also don't believe that the witness confused her days. Not if she saw the same woman walking up Fyfe with a little girl within minutes of that school sighting. And she gave this statement to LE just a few days later. You don't make mistakes about something this important.

This was a crucial piece of testimony that cast a long shadow of doubt about both motive and TLM's credibility. MOO

JMO

 

[flipflop]

(RSBM)

IMO, this is the big stretch. Why would he need to do that at all? Stranger abductions of children happen (although not as often as one would think here) without partners all the time. He didn't have to approach any school, especially that school. Look around. I've been doing it for three years. There are unaccompanied kids walking, playing, and riding their bikes everywhere you go.

If he indeed had this fantasy, all he had to do was cruise a park, a playground, or any street, even in a rural area. Why kidnap a random child from a school in your own home town and transport her out into the country to assault and murder? What was the rush? He could have driven around the Guelph or Mount Forest area any time and found a vulnerable child. Instead, he got some teenage junkie he barely knew to kidnap a kid in broad daylight from inside a school with witnesses all about? It's risky as hell and makes no sense.

I posted this before. 90% of non-family abductions are by men alone. He did not need TLM or anyone else. He was wily and physically strong. He was familiar with the Mount Forest area. He very well could have done this by himself - IF it had been his idea.

JMO

Would have, could have, should have....I am sure MR is kicking himself now for involving TLM in the plan and not carrying it out himself. JMO

 

[roseofsharon]

(RSBM)

IMO, this is the big stretch. Why would he need to do that at all? Stranger abductions of children happen (although not as often as one would think here) without partners all the time. He didn't have to approach any school, especially that school. Look around. I've been doing it for three years. There are unaccompanied kids walking, playing, and riding their bikes everywhere you go.

If he indeed had this fantasy, all he had to do was cruise a park, a playground, or any street, even in a rural area. Why kidnap a random child from a school in your own home town and transport her out into the country to assault and murder? What was the rush? He could have driven around the Guelph or Mount Forest area any time and found a vulnerable child. Instead, he got some teenage junkie he barely knew to kidnap a kid in broad daylight from inside a school with witnesses all about? It's risky as hell and makes no sense.

I posted this before. 90% of non-family abductions are by men alone. He did not need TLM or anyone else. He was wily and physically strong. He was familiar with the Mount Forest area. He very well could have done this by himself - IF it had been his idea.

JMO

Respectfully, I think MR fantasized for a long time, but IMO, he's a coward and adopted the idiom "there's safety in numbers", once he found the right person to help him carry out the crime. MOO

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...'s+safety+in+numbers&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

 

[tmhco]

Just out of curiosity, what did TLM do inside the school if indeed she did enter? Why is this such a revelation for some? I'm at a loss.