Trial Thread, Weekend Discussion May 4-5, 2012 Waiting for Closing Arguments

[Alethea Dice]

I read somewhere that TLM said they got rid of their clothes at the car wash.......and then read somewhere else she said they threw them out the window while driving down the 401

I am thinking we are getting all kinds of bad reporting and it is hard to tell if we are even discussing the same things as the jury will deliberate.

This system of informing the public is a joke.........

JMO.......

I thought the clothes were thrown out at the car wash but the shoes and back seat pieces were thrown out the window on the 401. You are telling me no one saw someone throw shoes out the window on the 401 even if it was dark???

I thought the clothes and hammer were thrown out at the car wash, the shoes were thrown out on the road near the lane (concession 6?), and the seat pieces were thrown out on the 401.

 

[Ardy]

I see that as Tori not wanting to be with MTR. He was going into TM, so she stayed in the car.

I think at that point TLM was manipulating Tori into feeling safe, so i think MTR scared her more.

That is just my opinion, I can't imagine what was going through her mind at that point. She was a little girl and probably scared to death, maybe in shock and not full understanding what was happening to her.

I read it to read that MR was already inside the TH when TLM asked VS if she needed to go to the bathroom.

What an odd question to ask a kidnapped little girl.

If VS had said yes, are we to believe that TLM would have taken her into the TH?

JMO......

 

[Hello_Kitty]

I read somewhere that TLM said they got rid of their clothes at the car wash.......and then read somewhere else she said they threw them out the window while driving down the 401

I am thinking we are getting all kinds of bad reporting and it is hard to tell if we are even discussing the same things as the jury will deliberate.

This system of informing the public is a joke.........

JMO.......

Hope that helps! Read from bottom to top.


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14 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
This happened between 9 or 10. He asked what she would tell her mom. McClintic said she'd "think of something".
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14 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
They got back to Woodstock. He dropped her off at Starlight Variety. He didn't want to be seen near her house.
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14 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
During the car ride, Rafferty told her to change her appearance, McClintic says.
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14 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Foam from the back seat was also thrown out the window.
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14 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
She threw more items out the window as they drove. Rafferty said to "hurry up" because they were getting close to Woodstock.
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14 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
She says Rafferty told her to cut portions of the back seat out, because he couldn't get them cleaned. He used a blue knife.
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14 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
They threw their old clothes out the window on the 401 near Cambridge. She says they were there around 8 pm.
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14 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
She says they stopped and washed themselves and change clothes at a nearby washroom. He had more clothes in his gym bag.
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14 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Rafferty bought Armor All wipes from a nearby store. McClintic describes the cleaning as "very thorough".
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14 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
They shampooed the inside to the car. McClintic cleaned the floor mats at a separate bay.
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14 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
McClintic threw away some if the garbage bags. They were at the car for half hour or 45 minutes.
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14 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
McClintic says Rafferty threw the garbage bags from the crime scene into a dumpster at the car wash. There were 4 or 5.
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14 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Rafferty washed the car at a self serve car wash. Rafferty discussed buying new clothes at an Old Navy. It was closed.
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14 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
He also suggested they stop at a Goodlife Fitness in Cambridge to shower. She could use his membership. They went to wash the car first.
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14 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
She said Rafferty changed shirts. His had blood on it. The bloody shirt was thrown in a garbage bag.
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14 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
McClintic was wearing shoes three sizes too big, and a shirt from Rafferty's gym bag to keep warm.
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14 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
...she was right, they "should probably clean the car first." They went to a car wash in Cambridge.
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14 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
McClintic says they drove to Cambridge on the way home. Rafferty asked if she wanted something to eat. She scoffed. He said...
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14 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
McClintic says it was still light outside when they left the scene of the sexual assault. Darker as they drove.
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14 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Rafferty also took some perks. She says Rafferty would have offered McClintic more after Tori died, but he said she was "****ed up enough".
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14 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
McClintic said she took a "handful" of perks. She says "drugs were the only thing she knew as an answer".
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14 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
McClintic says she smoked pot, took oxy contin (injected and popped) and took perks during the day Tori was kidnapped.
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14 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
They threw away their shoes. Rafferty had extra pairs.
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14 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
McClintic says they stayed silent until they got onto side road 6 near Guelph. Rafferty said they needed to get rid of their shoes.
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14 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
McClintic says Rafferty told her to never speak of the incident again. "There wasn't much conversation," she says.
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14 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
McClintic tells the jury that Rafferty wasn't wearing pants until after the sexual assault.
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14 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Rafferty changed his clothes after the attack, McClintic tells the jury.
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14 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Gowdey has resumed his questions. McClintic says her white jacket, empty water bottles, Tori's clothes and the hammer went in a garbage bag.
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14 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
The jury is now entering the courtroom.
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[snoofer]

I think the theory put out by one of our posters a few days ago, that TLM "knew of" Tori is very plausible. TLM had met TM and it is possible that somewhere in a conversation the fact that TM had children came up - just in passing. TM also lived within a few blocks of TLM, so it is possible that TLM saw TM with the kids at one point in time.

I think it was this familarity that led TLM to Tori. I don't think she "knew" her, but I do think she knew who she was.

Even if TLM admitted that she knew Tori - I don't think that would erase the kidnapping for rape motive. If MR told her to get a child, and TLM "knew of" Tori, TLM would be more comfortable approaching Tori, than a stange child. TLM knew about the dogs and knew she could use that as a conversation starter with this particular child. TLM also knew if someone saw her, she could just say they were talking about the dogs. I really think this provided some level of comfort to TLM, allowing her to go through with the plan to take a child. I also think that MR knew some of this information and I don't doubt that he may have mentioned it to TLM to assure her it would be easy.... and no worries if someone saw her.

If MR was not a part of this - please explain how his blood was mixed with Tori's. Also, please explain how MR's blood, TLM's blood and Tori's blood were all mixed together. I understand the position about the semen mixed with the blood and it is my firm belief that the semen is MR's, in his car, and that, to me, when combined with the other evidence that has been presented, confirms MR's sexual assault of Tori.

I would be very interested to hear the theories of how all three got their blood all mixed up.

Salem

Let's face it, a girl is taken to the rural with a 28 year old man with no permission from parents, and LE says for nefarious and sexual purposes. TS blood is found mixed with semen. Case is solved. He did it. Anything else is just silliness. JMO

 

[Ardy]

Anyone else feel that MR had no idea what he was dealing with concerning TLM?

Sure, he thought he was quite the dude.........and had her all set up to provide him with drugs and connections...........but......................

If he really knew of her past, I doubt he would be sleeping in a motel room with her......unless he kept one eye open.

I could imagine getting her angry about some small thing, and see her standing at the end of the bed with a baseball bat in her hand saying......no I'm not tired yet.........you just go ahead and get some sleep.

IIRC, she said something about him saying he just liked to wake up beside her...........maybe he meant he was just happy to wake up at all.

JMO............

 

[Hello_Kitty]

I think the <modsnip> corroborated their timeline. So they testified to alot more than just him being a 'cad'

 

[flipflop]

I thought the clothes and hammer were thrown out at the car wash, the shoes were thrown out on the road near the lane (concession 6?), and the seat pieces were thrown out on the 401.

The shoes were thrown out on sideroad 6 just before you get into Guelph, this is where TLM's shoes were found, not the road where the laneway is.

 

[Macright]

Hope that helps! Read from bottom to top.


Reply Retweet Favorite
14 Mar AM980.ca &#8207; @AM980_Court
This happened between 9 or 10. He asked what she would tell her mom. McClintic said she'd "think of something".
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
14 Mar AM980.ca &#8207; @AM980_Court
They got back to Woodstock. He dropped her off at Starlight Variety. He didn't want to be seen near her house.
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
14 Mar AM980.ca &#8207; @AM980_Court
During the car ride, Rafferty told her to change her appearance, McClintic says.
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
14 Mar AM980.ca &#8207; @AM980_Court
Foam from the back seat was also thrown out the window.
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
14 Mar AM980.ca &#8207; @AM980_Court
She threw more items out the window as they drove. Rafferty said to "hurry up" because they were getting close to Woodstock.
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
14 Mar AM980.ca &#8207; @AM980_Court
She says Rafferty told her to cut portions of the back seat out, because he couldn't get them cleaned. He used a blue knife.
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
14 Mar AM980.ca &#8207; @AM980_Court
They threw their old clothes out the window on the 401 near Cambridge. She says they were there around 8 pm.
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
14 Mar AM980.ca &#8207; @AM980_Court
She says they stopped and washed themselves and change clothes at a nearby washroom. He had more clothes in his gym bag.
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
14 Mar AM980.ca &#8207; @AM980_Court
Rafferty bought Armor All wipes from a nearby store. McClintic describes the cleaning as "very thorough".
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
14 Mar AM980.ca &#8207; @AM980_Court
They shampooed the inside to the car. McClintic cleaned the floor mats at a separate bay.
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
14 Mar AM980.ca &#8207; @AM980_Court
McClintic threw away some if the garbage bags. They were at the car for half hour or 45 minutes.
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
14 Mar AM980.ca &#8207; @AM980_Court
McClintic says Rafferty threw the garbage bags from the crime scene into a dumpster at the car wash. There were 4 or 5.
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
14 Mar AM980.ca &#8207; @AM980_Court
Rafferty washed the car at a self serve car wash. Rafferty discussed buying new clothes at an Old Navy. It was closed.
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
14 Mar AM980.ca &#8207; @AM980_Court
He also suggested they stop at a Goodlife Fitness in Cambridge to shower. She could use his membership. They went to wash the car first.
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
14 Mar AM980.ca &#8207; @AM980_Court
She said Rafferty changed shirts. His had blood on it. The bloody shirt was thrown in a garbage bag.
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
14 Mar AM980.ca &#8207; @AM980_Court
McClintic was wearing shoes three sizes too big, and a shirt from Rafferty's gym bag to keep warm.
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
14 Mar AM980.ca &#8207; @AM980_Court
...she was right, they "should probably clean the car first." They went to a car wash in Cambridge.
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
14 Mar AM980.ca &#8207; @AM980_Court
McClintic says they drove to Cambridge on the way home. Rafferty asked if she wanted something to eat. She scoffed. He said...
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
14 Mar AM980.ca &#8207; @AM980_Court
McClintic says it was still light outside when they left the scene of the sexual assault. Darker as they drove.
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
14 Mar AM980.ca &#8207; @AM980_Court
Rafferty also took some perks. She says Rafferty would have offered McClintic more after Tori died, but he said she was "****ed up enough".
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
14 Mar AM980.ca &#8207; @AM980_Court
McClintic said she took a "handful" of perks. She says "drugs were the only thing she knew as an answer".
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
14 Mar AM980.ca &#8207; @AM980_Court
McClintic says she smoked pot, took oxy contin (injected and popped) and took perks during the day Tori was kidnapped.
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
14 Mar AM980.ca &#8207; @AM980_Court
They threw away their shoes. Rafferty had extra pairs.
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
14 Mar AM980.ca &#8207; @AM980_Court
McClintic says they stayed silent until they got onto side road 6 near Guelph. Rafferty said they needed to get rid of their shoes.
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
14 Mar AM980.ca &#8207; @AM980_Court
McClintic says Rafferty told her to never speak of the incident again. "There wasn't much conversation," she says.
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
14 Mar AM980.ca &#8207; @AM980_Court
McClintic tells the jury that Rafferty wasn't wearing pants until after the sexual assault.
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
14 Mar AM980.ca &#8207; @AM980_Court
Rafferty changed his clothes after the attack, McClintic tells the jury.
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
14 Mar AM980.ca &#8207; @AM980_Court
Gowdey has resumed his questions. McClintic says her white jacket, empty water bottles, Tori's clothes and the hammer went in a garbage bag.
Expand
Reply Retweet Favorite
14 Mar AM980.ca &#8207; @AM980_Court
The jury is now entering the courtroom.
Expand

Reply Retweet Favorite
14 Mar AM980.ca &#8207; @AM980_Court
This happened between 9 or 10. He asked what she would tell her mom. McClintic said she'd "think of something".
Expand

sorry but I just had to chuckle at that tweet...would anyone with an ounce of sanity actually believe that MR asked TLM what she would tell her mother CM (when he dropped her off) as if CM gave a fiddlers and as if TLM had a curfrew...that made me choke on my coffee.... the only reason I can come up with if that had any ounce of truth to it would be that CM was in on this with TLM...JMO JMO

 

[Tahorn]

Let's face it, a girl is taken to the rural with a 28 year old man with no permission from parents, and LE says for nefarious and sexual purposes. TS blood is found mixed with semen. Case is solved. He did it. Anything else is just silliness. JMO

They found VS blood with sperm cells, no semen ... in the general area were other sperms cells were found with no semen and no blood.

 

[Alethea Dice]

14 Mar AM980.ca &#8207; @AM980_Court
They got back to Woodstock. He dropped her off at Starlight Variety. He didn't want to be seen near her house.

I always wondered why he made her walk home. If they'd been together most of the day, what difference would it make if he was seen near her house when they got back. Why would he need to distance himself from her if it was all his plan? Surely, under the circumstances, it wasn't to protect her.

 

[Alison]

<modsnip>

It has been made more than clear throughout the case that the lawyer has been fighting to have MR's character not attacked. I never said their were witnesses not put on the stand I said "evidence" that was excluded. Feel free to browse through media articles <modsnip>.

 

[Tahorn]

Anyone else feel that MR had no idea what he was dealing with concerning TLM?

Sure, he thought he was quite the dude.........and had her all set up to provide him with drugs and connections...........but......................

If he really knew of her past, I doubt he would be sleeping in a motel room with her......unless he kept one eye open.

I could imagine getting her angry about some small thing, and see her standing at the end of the bed with a baseball bat in her hand saying......no I'm not tired yet.........you just go ahead and get some sleep.

IIRC, she said something about him saying he just liked to wake up beside her...........maybe he meant he was just happy to wake up at all.

JMO............

For me all the women that testified they dated MR proves to me that MR knew he did not have the control over women people think he did. They met, they dated, sex, no sex and did not work out. If he was the master manipulator these women would have been walk through fire for him from the testimony I heard that was not the case.

 

[Tahorn]

Maybe TLM was having flashbacks and hallucinations and can't separate reality from her distorted memories of that day.

Maybe the sexual assault was TLM projecting herself back into a time in her young life.........she did mention something to that affect.

She also claimed MR made some strange comment to VS about doing this before.......or something similar.

I am sure the jury is going to wrestle with TLM's ability to tell the truth, both from a memory standpoint and an honesty standpoint.

It would be hard to imagine a Crown having as his key witness someone the likes of TLM.

JMO.......

I honestly believe the sexual assault accusation was because that is what every one would believe ... I thought that was the case from the moment I heard VS was missing. Sometimes things aren't always what the seem to be ... besides it was her best chance of getting out from under it ... It worked for KH and MK (pictou sadist)

 

[Wondergirl]

I just wanted to give my personal experience on some arguments that have been going back and forth....
Someone very close to me was assaulted which led to murder, I have comments about a couple of issues:

1. I could not attend the trial for more then 1 week. I just started a new job. I actually was lucky I had 1 week vacation at the time. I missed the closing statements and verdict and a few other days. I could not afford to take ANY time off work because I had bills to pay and children to take care of. They do not hand out "victim" funds very easily. It is a fight to get anything, especially if you are not the "victim". Believe it or not, family of a murder person are not the "victims" in their eyes. The deceased is considered the "victim". They do help with some funds (they have a set list and rules), but the DO NOT cover "lost wages" for ANYTHING (trial, funerals, and the hours and hours I spent in the hospital prior to death, no gas money for travelling, in fact they cover very little for family of victims). So from first hand experience, I can say that sometimes it is very hard for family to attend, especially if the case runs for weeks and weeks. Just because I was not there sometimes, does not mean I didnt care. I was kept up-to-date daily by the crown and his assistants.

2. People were talking about RS and how he is upset about never knowing the truth and saying it does not matter. It DOES matter to know the truth. It my situation I was led to believe I lost my loved one over $40. This is not true, but the truth never came out. Lies were all I heard. It bothers me that I will NEVER know the truth. I cant even begin to explain how it feels to not know the truth. I am not sure why, but it would make a difference in my mind, even if the truth hurt worse then the lie.

Anyways, I was reading some previous arguments and thought I'd add my 2 cents.

Thank-you for your post.

I am sorry for your loss.

 

[Heliotrope]

If this were the case, you would think they'd want to finish as soon as they were out of the area and leave their errands until afterwards. Why risk even more time to allow for that radio report and the chance of being caught with her in the car.

JMO

Errands? With due respect, they didn't get the oil changed or pick up some groceries.

They picked up drugs to get high, maybe water to wash down said drugs and clean up the mess, a murder weapon and a means of containing blood spatter. I wouldn't call that errands, I'd call it premeditated murder.

Where should they have raped and murdered her - in the Home Depot parking lot? Out in front of the school? At his house?

Honestly, I don't think he knew she'd go through with it until she did; it doesn't sound like he had a rape kit like the Crazy Colonel did. They improvised, in my opinion. They fled the immediate area, armed themselves with the necessary equipment and then went to a remote location to commit the rape and murder.

Three or four hours... They could have been more efficient perhaps, but I don't think efficiency was the driving force.

 

[crazyladi]

Anyone else feel that MR had no idea what he was dealing with concerning TLM?

Sure, he thought he was quite the dude.........and had her all set up to provide him with drugs and connections...........but......................

If he really knew of her past, I doubt he would be sleeping in a motel room with her......unless he kept one eye open.

I could imagine getting her angry about some small thing, and see her standing at the end of the bed with a baseball bat in her hand saying......no I'm not tired yet.........you just go ahead and get some sleep.

IIRC, she said something about him saying he just liked to wake up beside her...........maybe he meant he was just happy to wake up at all.

JMO............

Not at all. He knew exactly what she was about that is why he chose her to fulfill his plan. Jmo

 

[Tahorn]

I always wondered why he made her walk home. If they'd been together most of the day, what difference would it make if he was seen near her house when they got back. Why would he need to distance himself from her if it was all his plan? Surely, under the circumstances, it wasn't to protect her.

Nor is it the way you would treat someone you want to keep your secret ...

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I read it to read that MR was already inside the TH when TLM asked VS if she needed to go to the bathroom.

What an odd question to ask a kidnapped little girl.

If VS had said yes, are we to believe that TLM would have taken her into the TH?

JMO......

If MTR was already in TM , even if Tori would have gone in after MTR she still would have been in the TH with MTR. I think she wanted to be as far away from MTR as possible.

I think it is possible that TLM did not ask Tori if she needed to use the bathroom because she had any intention of doing so. I think TLM was pretending to be nurturing, caring and considerate because it was a way of keeping her calm.

As to why Tori might not have taken advantage of what you see as an opportunity to get away, sometimes when people are in these type of situations they just do what they are told.

Victims don't think clearly when this stuff is going on and neither do the perpetrators. Many victims ask themselves why they didn't run, why they didn't fight back when they look back and see opportunities that might have prevented them from being harmed. If they did fight back, run, or screamed and they were still hurt they wonder if things would have been different if they had not done those things. Many, many, many other victims of horrible crimes feel this way. Young children to adults, low IQs to high IQs, weak and strong. Children and adults who have been taught about stranger danger.

So I don't know whether or not to believe TLM would have taken her to the bathroom. Different perps do different things. Some of them make sense and some of them don't. :Moo: I don't think the bathroom trip is significant.

 

[crazyladi]

<modsnip>

Can you find me the statement that says derstine has fought tooth and nail for mtr? I don't recall seeing that

 

[JayFriend]

AM980.ca@AM980_CourtReplyDuring McClintic's testimony about cleaning the car, Rafferty mouthed the word "liar". Lots of reaction from him today.

Here's another reason Rafferty should have testified if he's actually not guilty. Of course, Derstine expects the jury to remember Rafferty's gesturing and perhaps they will, but it most certainly cannot be considered evidence.