Trial Thread, Weekend Discussion May 4-5, 2012 Waiting for Closing Arguments

[lightlady]

Had Tori soiled herself earlier in the trip, it seems even clearer to me that MR should have known they were NOT babysitting and that they were taking this girl for the wrong reasons, leading to guilty on kidnapping and hence murder. I agree with others that no girl will remove all her clothes in the company of strangers, even if they were soiled.
I also sadly believe that the effects of a rape could lead a little girl to believe she needed to go to the potty.

 

[Jezbel]

I absolutely agree with this. When things don't make sense, I have wondered if it is just dodgy reporting as opposed to proof that something is a lie/untrue/unproven.
Then, after all the tweets confuse the heck out of everybody, a lot of the articles published afterwards tend to be opinion articles. Hard to weed out the facts in those. And they tend to be biased, written by very angry people. And I understand that, but I just can't understand why a reporter can't do his or her job objectively and publish just the facts without throwing in their opinions of the accused.
It has been driving me nuts.


JMO

I agree with you on a lot of the articles but I think LFP do a good job of detailing the facts without their opinion thrown in.

 

[Tahorn]

Ok, MR is guilty ... Lock him up now let's move on ...

How do we protect our children, when we ignore the facts that this case may not of been sexually motivated. TLM was in our child welfare system and still she only had a grade eight education. How does that happen? She was sentences for violent crimes and wrote about revenge regarding these crimes and still she was let out early on probation. How does that happen? She missed her appointment with a mental health worker and an arrest warrant was issued, yet she wasn't arrested until after VS was killed. How does that happen? All the signs were there and ignored. Until our systems wakes up to preventive education then more of our children will be lost. For me turning our backs on people like TLM is why VS is lost to us today. ... I am afraid that if this case gets recorded as a sexually motivated crime the real issues will be hidden away ...

And more TLM will be created ...

 

[snoofer]

He made her walk from the school to the nursing home, and based on the timestamps he most likely drove by her while she was walking up the hill with Tori.

He parked next to the garage to get cash, but then parked in one of the furthest rows far from HD and made her walk.

I still we tend to look at a lot of the testimony with the wisdom of hindsight - they still didn't know at that point if either of them had been spotted / reported at any point, so kept a bit of distance.

Didn't he call home late that evening? It occurs to me out of the blue that maybe that's why he called - he could get a sense from his mother of how much the story was in the news and if there was any specific info linking them to the crime.

YES! And if it was SAFE to go home! MOO Ugh, I was at shoe store other day and saw his fave sneakers.....made me want to barf! MOO

 

[snoofer]

It wouldn't surprise me if he did, my other half is a trainer freak and always pumas, all of his are very similar too, when one pair starts wearing out, he will buy a shiny new pair and use the old for work/gym/gardening etc.

The buying things in "two's again". MOO

 

[crazyladi]

It makes me crazy sometimes too, as I believe the evidence speaks for itself. I do need to see the different view point for my own sanity. If he is aquitted it will help me thru it. JMO

For sure sorry on that post it linked one of your posts that had nothing to do with what I was saying. I am on my iPhone and I must have clicked yours as quoting. I am sure you could tell lol

 

[OhSoCurious]

IMO TLM may have been looking for an excuse to get out of the mess she was in. And yes I do believe IF Tori would have said yes, TLM would've taken her in and rescued her. That would have been her deciding point.

TLM would NEVER have "rescued" that poor, targeted, helpless victim of a sweet little girl. TLM wanted to do what she did. JMO

When she was in Home Depot alone, she could have asked ANYONE to call the cops 911 before she went back out to the parking lot. JMO

 

[crazyladi]

TLM would NEVER have "rescued" that poor, targeted, helpless victim of a sweet little girl. TLM wanted to do what she did. JMO

When she was in Home Depot alone, she could have asked ANYONE to call the cops 911 before she went back out to the parking lot. JMO

And so could have mtr. He will be serving the same sentence shortly

 

[crazyladi]

I found an interesting post while looking around on the site for articles around the time Tori went missing. I am not sure if the parent in this article was contacted by police or if this was investigated but I thought it was interesting.

"A woman who lives on Tennyson Street, a few homes away from where Rafferty was arrested, says her son had a scary encounter on the street about two weeks before Victoria went missing.

Her 10-year-old son told her then that he was approached by two people in a car but ran away before anyone spoke to him.

She said the incident made her pay close attention to Victoria's case and that she and several other people living on Tennyson had posted pictures of Victoria in the front windows of their home and on the sides of their cars."

I found it very interesting, something to think about even if means nothing.

http://edmonton.ctv.ca/servlet/an/l...ford_arrest_090520/20090520/?hub=EdmontonHome

 

[crazyladi]

I also would love to know what this means

"I have bad days these days more then (sic) good," Rafferty wrote in an online profile.

"I dwell on the past and wish I could go back and change some things and do it all over again ... maybe just the last five years.

"I am sorry every day and feel the pain of knowing that if I had done something different, then life as I know it would be filled with joy."

What did he do that was so wrong that he could be so depressed? I think there is something we dont know what we might find out later. Or maybe not. It would be good to know when he posted it and why. JMO

 

[crazyladi]

I found this makes sense of his personality. He wasn't threatening to one girl but was very secretive to another with sexual aggression. I know you cant take what is written on news reports as facts as words seem to get twisted but I do feel that he didnt come across threatening but had an out there sexual interests and was very secretive.

Melanie, a woman who met Rafferty several years ago, has described him as a good-looking guy who didn't seem threatening.

An ex-girlfriend, though, has called him a secretive person with aggressive sexual interests.

Also this link states whats sounds to be a comment from toocloseforcomfort

http://www.thestar.com/article/638574

Even Carol said that MTR gave her the creeps and made her skin crawl.

Whatever the reason why the crown chose not to have these women state why they broke up or why they felt they didnt want anything more to do with him I feel that it would have been important. However I dont know if there is a reason why they didnt.

 

[greenthumb]

Ok, MR is guilty ... Lock him up now let's move on ...

How do we protect our children, when we ignore the facts that this case may not of been sexually motivated. TLM was in our child welfare system and still she only had a grade eight education. How does that happen? She was sentences for violent crimes and wrote about revenge regarding these crimes and still she was let out early on probation. How does that happen? She missed her appointment with a mental health worker and an arrest warrant was issued, yet she wasn't arrested until after VS was killed. How does that happen? All the signs were there and ignored. Until our systems wakes up to preventive education then more of our children will be lost. For me turning our backs on people like TLM is why VS is lost to us today. ... I am afraid that if this case gets recorded as a sexually motivated crime the real issues will be hidden away ...

And more TLM will be created ...

BBM - I absolutely agree with the statement bolded above, and I hope that this case does bring us, as a society, to see some of what you term 'the real issues'. But, IMO, that is just one side of the coin - because I do not think this case is entirely about the wreck of a human being that is TLM. I think the collaboration of TLM, with all her issues, and MR, with his distinct and separate issues, conjured up 'the perfect storm' of evil. So, in my mind, I cannot dismiss that the crime was sexually motivated - I think that was his motivation. I believe MR was a master manipulator, and that TLM would have done anything that she thought would impress or please him. Because she lacks a conscience and cares about just a very few people - her mom, for one... maybe her godmother... and for a brief time, MR... because she really believed he cared about her, and for a neglected, abused, discarded child like TLM, just imagine how powerful a currency that 'little bit of love' is.

I think he, OTOH, recognized in her a willingness to go to any lengths at all, without qualms, to satisfy him. I believe her when she testified that he goaded her by saying she was all talk... and that played right into her second most valued currency... protecting her 'tough girl' status. And I think that he possibly never really thought she'd do it... I think it could have been one of those things that got started from a flippant comment, a dare... and that once the ball was rolling, neither of them could/would back down. And that once Tori was in the car, it was too late and they 'couldn't keep her and they couldn't take her home'... and so he thought he may as well indulge his sick fantasy first, which led him to say 'you know I'm going to rape (or some other word) her, right?'

Doesn't make much difference to me if TLM went in the school seeking Tori because she knew her or knew of her, or if she was outside and picked Tori because she was walking alone... I believe TLM went to the school to get a girl, on a 'dare' from MR and that they both are entirely responsible in Tori's death, regardless of who held the hammer.

All just MOO.

 

[crazyladi]

I found this other link as well that I thought was very interesting. I bolded the part that stands out to me as I am not sure if that was supposed to say "said TM not carol.

"I have five grandkids and Terri-Lynne is like a saint with them," said Carol, who has a 34-year-old daughter and a 31-year-old son who live in Brampton. Carol said Terri-Lynne and Tori had met thanks to dogs – Carol owns two small dogs.

"The only thing I knew about Terri-Lynne was that she walked the dogs and Tori had talked to her about Precious (one of the dogs) as she is the same as their dog," said Carol.

She met Tara McDonald, Tori's mother, and James Goris, her boyfriend, who she said wanted to breed their dog, Cosmo, with her dogs.

 

[greenthumb]

Also just wanted to add that I can easily picture a scenario where MR might say to TLM, perhaps after their 'tryst' at the Super 8, when she was feeling 'in love' - something like 'Karla H. sure knew how to show her man she loved him, she did anything he asked her to do, helped him get girls... you don't really love me, I know you wouldn't do that for me'... and when TLM protested that yes, yes she'd do anything, anything at all... he had her hooked. IMO, the whole thing might very well have escalated from that kind of a comment... and if instead of being willing, she had acted shocked or upset, he would have made a joke of it, and said 'oh, I was just kidding, don't be so stupid'.

Again, IMO - they were the 'perfect storm' of evil, these two.

 

[crazyladi]

I found this other article that could be why she was skipping. TLM supposedly was talking to her about her dog and Tori said she wanted to see it, so I am assuming off they went?

"McClintic says she introduced herself as "T" to Tori. The young girl shared that her name was Victoria, but everyone called her Tori. The conversation then turned to dogs, with McClintic telling the girl she had a shih tzu named Precious. Tori indicated she wanted to see the dog."

http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/cbc-article.aspx?cp-documentid=26681990

 

[tmhco]

For sure sorry on that post it linked one of your posts that had nothing to do with what I was saying. I am on my iPhone and I must have clicked yours as quoting. I am sure you could tell lol

Well, my quote was dripping with sarcasm, one of my true talents! You do make a good point. This is a heinous crime and it is hard no to let emotions get the best of us regardless of the side we are on.

I have been reading here for a long time and refrained from posting because i was afraid I would get emotional. There is something about VS that touched my very soul and i convinced myself i would behave. Lol, hard to control human nature.

If I have offended anyone, I sincerely apologize. I did not come here to do that. As I have said on many occasions, I respect everyone's right to have an opinion. JMO

 

[crazyladi]

Well, my quote was dripping with sarcasm, one of my true talents! You do make a good point. This is a heinous crime and it is hard no to let emotions get the best of us regardless of the side we are on.

I have been reading here for a long time and refrained from posting because i was afraid I would get emotional. There is something about VS that touched my very soul and i convinced myself i would behave. Lol, hard to control human nature.

If I have offended anyone, I sincerely apologize. I did not come here to do that. As I have said on many occasions, I respect everyone's right to have an opinion. JMO

I have never heard you say something that was disrespectful at all, I enjoy your posts

 

[kmclaren]

I feel that if she pee'd herself, she would have taken off her tights and kept her skirt on to keep herself covered up being in the presence of a strange male. MOO

Also if she just pee'd herself and no rape took place....why were her clothes not with her, why did they throw them out elsewhere?

And just to add my opinion, if my 8 yr old pee'd herself in the back of a strange adult male's car while on a drive to who knows where, there is no way she would have even taken off her tights and panties, just no way.

I suspect that however Tori's panties, tights, skirt & jacket came off it wasn't voluntary...

 

[Ardy]

I found this other link as well that I thought was very interesting. I bolded the part that stands out to me as I am not sure if that was supposed to say "said TM not carol.

"I have five grandkids and Terri-Lynne is like a saint with them," said Carol, who has a 34-year-old daughter and a 31-year-old son who live in Brampton. Carol said Terri-Lynne and Tori had met thanks to dogs – Carol owns two small dogs.

"The only thing I knew about Terri-Lynne was that she walked the dogs and Tori had talked to her about Precious (one of the dogs) as she is the same as their dog," said Carol.

She met Tara McDonald, Tori's mother, and James Goris, her boyfriend, who she said wanted to breed their dog, Cosmo, with her dogs.

Geez...........first time I have seen that information.

Is that from a media source?

TIA..

 

[flipflop]

I found this other link as well that I thought was very interesting. I bolded the part that stands out to me as I am not sure if that was supposed to say "said TM not carol.

"I have five grandkids and Terri-Lynne is like a saint with them," said Carol, who has a 34-year-old daughter and a 31-year-old son who live in Brampton. Carol said Terri-Lynne and Tori had met thanks to dogs – Carol owns two small dogs.

"The only thing I knew about Terri-Lynne was that she walked the dogs and Tori had talked to her about Precious (one of the dogs) as she is the same as their dog," said Carol.

She met Tara McDonald, Tori's mother, and James Goris, her boyfriend, who she said wanted to breed their dog, Cosmo, with her dogs.

I remember reading this article early in 2009...
Im assuming that CM has heard TLM's testimony....I wonder if she would still use the word "saint" or it would now be "satan"