TX - 26 dead, 20 injured in church shooting, Sutherland Springs, 5 Nov 2017 #1

[human]

Back about 50 yrs. ago, I read an article from a sociologist/psychologist's point of view which PREDICTED we were
going to be raising a whole generation of sociopaths due to the fact that parents were no longer actively involved in their children's lives.
The author used the term DAYCARE which most people hardly knew what daycare was in the 60's-70's. The author went on to predict that due to parent's being so caught up in making money, with both parents working outside the home, that young children were actually being raised by strangers in daycare who cared little about instilling good
values or moral codes on the little ones.

I've never forgotten that article because my children were young at the time and I had neighbors who had started to use
these new daycares for convenience and as full time babysitters.

Seems as though the author was pretty accurate in their predictions as so many of these mass shooters come from families where there was an absence of parental presence. I always gravitate to investigating the birth family dynamics
to get a hint on what happened to the child when all grown up.
JMO

Children have gone to daycare in many countries of the world. They have the same music, violent movies and video games, divorce, abuse. What could the difference be?

 

[Cryptic]

He pled guilty and was convicted.

Do you have a link for this?

The Times article states that he admitted that the facts were accurate. This may not constitute a formal conviction. Likewise, it could well be possible for the military to sentence people to confinement without a formal conviction (administrative punishment).

 

[gitana1]

One thing we know, and that the FBI has known since the 70s, is that animal abuse correlates with violence against humans. This is why, in a more perfect world, Humane workers and social workers would be cross-trained to look for both and we'd have a better reporting/database situation.

(They are working on this now with an animal abuse database through the FBI. However, I believe they only track felony abuse, and most states do not prosecute some pretty serious animal abuse as felony. For instance, in Kentucky it's only felony animal abuse if it's torture. And it's always hard to prosecute animal abuse. Plus, abusing horses and other animals considered livestock are not covered by most abuse laws, but it doesn't make those people any less dangerous.)

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Which is another reason why we need tougher laws regarding animal abuse.

Recruiting standards can rise and fall very quickly. Technically, the standards never change, but the issuance rates of waivers can vary.

When I enlisted, the military did not run extensive confirmation back ground checks on entry level recruits. Thus, a potential recruit who did not need a criminal, physical or academic waiver and who did not come across as erratic during the recruitment interviews was not going be refused enlistment.

Though DK was arrested, charged with Domestic Violence type charges, and even admitted the facts supporting the charge was accurate, he may not have a formal conviction for the charge. I think that with out a formal conviction, he was going to pass the criminal background check. Likewise, he had no formal history of mental illness.

He was formally convicted and sentenced. Why do people think he wasn't? This guy was not allowed to possess firearms.

 

[bluesneakers]

Years ago I was friends w/ a sociologist/counselor who counseled returning VietNam vets who were having difficulties
assimilating back into society. I asked her point blank if the the war and ptsd were the cause of their difficulties and she proclaimed, No, most of these guys were maladjusted BEFORE they went into the military. Her professional opinion.
I think the military (recruiters) overlooks or covers up or hides many problem applicants in order to make their quota.

Vietnam veterans would have mostly been draftees.

 

[Cryptic]

He was formally convicted and sentenced. Why do people think he wasn't? This guy was not allowed to possess firearms.

Do you have a link for this?

The Times article states that he admitted that the facts were accurate. This may not constitute a formal conviction. Likewise, it could well be possible for the military to sentence people to confinement without a formal conviction (administrative punishment).

Why do people think he wasn't?

Because I know for a fact that military court martial cases can have some twists and that they do not always follow the civilian format.

Rather, they can have an administrative adjudication of guilt / punishment, a formal adjudication of guilt / punishment, and / or a combination of both. As to whether or not DK was formally convicted, I don't know. That is why I am asking for a link.

How familiar are you with military court martials?

 

[Deleted member 158085]

Good information, thanks ! Yes, I was glad to hear about the FBI getting involved with animal abuse.
But you're right, in many rural, poor areas it's difficult to get LE or Animal Control involved, if there is one.
My equine Vet told me she is a 'mandated reporter' if she sees or hears of animal abuse she MUST report it to authorities. I'm in a state where horses are still considered livestock but the horse industry is a multi-million $$
enterprise, so there's a little more clout here.
I still recall Jeffrey Dahmer's father discussing his son's animal torture and abuse as a very young child. but the father
was in such denial and overlooked his son's problems early on.

I gotta tell ya, we all think we have a serial killer in the making in my area. A few years ago, in rural Illinois, a cat was found nailed to an electric pole. The Humane Society put out a reward, but no one was ever caught. General opinion around here is that we have a dangerous psycho in our community who will eventually hurt a lot of people. And these folks in my community likely know nothing about the studies regarding serial killers and animal abuse, but that's what they feel in their gut.

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[kaen]

You'd be surprised at how many youngsters get medicated because their teachers at school suggest they be tested
for misbehaving at school. So often it begins with the schools and it 'could' be to make the teacher's job easier.

But, by the time the child is acting out at school, the parent is playing catch-up for many years of ignoring the problems at home. IMO, most behavior problems begin at home. And IMO, the parents are most times responsible whether
it comes out or they deny it. Could be negligent parents, abusive parents, hyper-religious parents and many more causes. But I firmly believe it starts in the home.

The law is very clear about suggesting or coercing or forcing families to medicate their children. Legally, schools cannot require a child to take medication. Any decisions about medication are the sole purview of the family and their medical professionals.

If the school staff believe a child is showing signs of a condition that might benefit from medication,they can suggest that he be evaluated to see if he qualifies for special education. They’re allowed to describe the behaviors they’re seeing. They can say how your child’s behavior is negatively affecting his learning. But they are not allowed to even bring up medication. Suggesting medication is out of the school's purview as they are not doctors.

On another note, how did this man become a security guard? He was not honorably discharged and had served time for domestic violence. People who knew him experienced character issues. This scenario could have also played out in the resort where he had access to emergency plans and communication systems.

 

[Deleted member 158085]

OT two people guessed this guy, now I'm going to have to look him up. I'm curious now.

OT - He's awesome. I would generally never send my atheist friends links to a religious person's writing, and one would probably have words with me if I did - except this guy. I've sent links from Fr. James to two people, and they have been impressed with him and his compassion. He's active on both FB and Twitter.

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[human]

Vietnam veterans would have mostly been draftees.

My best friend’s hubby went into the sefvice. No one knew anything about Vietnam. Within a few weeks, he told all of,his friends to not go into the service because of Vietnam. He is 70 years old and just two years ago was diagnosed with PTSD. He is a great guy, but the war took a toll. Alcoholic and used drugs, but over the last 40years only alcohol and marijuana.

Drinks very rarely now. We did not know about PTSD. So many lives affected by war.

 

[Inthedetails]

More info about his teen years:

“'He was very sick in the head,' Katy Landry, a former girlfriend of Devin Patrick Kelley, told NBC News. 'Years after dating me he would try to bribe me to hang out with him. He ended up assaulting me.'

Landry said she met Kelley in church as a teenager, but it was not immediately clear when their relationship began or ended."

http://nypost.com/2017/11/06/texas-church-shooter-tried-to-bribe-underage-girls-to-date-him/

 

[Tbone144]

FWIW:

The description of the background check through the federal databases that are conducted prior to fire arm purchase. Concealed carry is completely different:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Instant_Criminal_Background_Check_System


This stands out to me as he was incarcerated for one year, not more than one year:

“A prohibited person is one who:

Has been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year”

It also lists the dishonorable discharge which is still up in the air at this point.

If Academy ran his check and he didn’t tick any of the boxes, they didn’t have a reason not to sell.

The last gun show I was at their was a small professional dealer who denied a sale when the couple started talking about who was going to pass the background check. He explained to us after he didn’t want his name associated with anything improper that may occur. It didn’t feel right to him so he said no. They weren’t going to raise a fuss in that environment and may have just gone further down the line. Starting off the conversation about how you shouldn’t need a background check to buy a 0.22 gave them a weird vibe from the start.

 

[margarita25]

New Braunfels is where Joshua Davis disappeared. No connection, just made me think of him.
That case haunts me... .

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...els-4-Feb-2011-6/page3&highlight=joshua+davis

I am curious as to his activities when he was in Colorado Springs...there were some shootings near Garden of the Gods, etc...and again, I can't help but wonder where he was in May 2015...probably slim chance he's related to NOCO, but one can't help but ask...moo.

 

[Deleted member 158085]

Fine-tuning the details on his targeting locals on Facebook:

"Devin Patrick Kelley spent the months before his attack 'starting drama' with strangers on Facebook — and he specifically targeted people from 'within 20 minutes' of the population-400 town where he committed Sunday’s heinous attack, according to resident Johnathan Castillo."

http://nypost.com/2017/11/06/texas-shooter-trolled-town-on-facebook-before-attack/

What's weird is that it seems like he was specifically targeting his MIL/inlaws, but his Facebook provocations were against the community in general. ??

jmo

A community this small may have been very protective of one of their own and helped her escape him, earning his ire. I came from a town that small, and that's what I suspect.

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[Inthedetails]

And more signs of trouble:

'He was booted from the Air Force for beating his wife and child in 2012. The pair divorced that year, and Kelley married Danielle Shields in 2014.

Two months before the wedding, Texas sheriffs responded to a domestic violence call at a house where Kelley was staying after a tipster told them her friend’s 'boyfriend was abusing her.'"

http://nypost.com/2017/11/06/texas-church-shooter-tried-to-bribe-underage-girls-to-date-him/

 

[kaen]

No. He was incarcerated. So he was charged with an actual crime.

COLORADO SPRINGS — Before a 26-year-old gunman entered a rural Texaschurch with a ballistic vest and a military-style rifle, killing at least 26 people on Sunday, he was convicted of assaulting his wife and breaking his infant stepson’s skull.
In 2012, while stationed at Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico, Devin P. Kelley, 26, was charged with “assault on his spouse and assault on their child,” according to the Air Force.
“He assaulted his stepson severely enough that he fractured his skull, and he also assaulted his wife,” said Don Christensen, a retired colonel who was the chief prosecutor for the Air Force. “He pled to intentionally doing it.”
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/us/devin-patrick-kelley-texas.amp.html

I am just catching up but the idea that he served twelve months for fracturing a child's skull and does not have a felony conviction speaks to something being wrong in the military justice system. He was able to get out become a security guard, was able to buy weapons. I am more than a little horrified.

 

[Inthedetails]

A community this small may have been very protective of one of their own and helped her escape him, earning his ire. I came from a town that small, and that's what I suspect.

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Interesting insight!

jmo

 

[margarita25]

from the presser:

he owned 4 guns, 2 bought in Texas, 2 bought when he lived in the trailer park in Colorado.
bought a gun per year from 2014-2017

from msm- a neighbor of parents said he lived in a barn apt. on parents property. I checked property records and the
annual property taxes were over $8,000 per yr. and assessed for taxes at $ 450,000 which could mean it's worth much more per market value.
He had worked as certified security guard at private water park nearby, which closed down for winter Nov. 1 but had a
limited schedule since Sept. So his job/income ran out and he would be unemployed for the winter.

So, was he in CO Springs during the Planned Parenthood shootings?

 

[human]

The law is very clear about suggesting or coercing or forcing families to medicate their children. Legally, schools cannot require a child to take medication. Any decisions about medication are the sole purview of the family and their medical professionals.

If the school staff believe a child is showing signs of a condition that might benefit from medication,they can suggest that he be evaluated to see if he qualifies for special education. They’re allowed to describe the behaviors they’re seeing. They can say how your child’s behavior is negatively affecting his learning. But they are not allowed to even bring up medication. Suggesting medication is out of the school's purview as they are not doctors.

On another note, how did this man become a security guard? He was not honorably discharged and had served time for domestic violence. People who knew him experienced character issues. This scenario could have also played out in the resort where he had access to emergency plans and communication systems.

The myths re teachers medicating children. Thank you for your clear explanation

 

[Deleted member 158085]

Interesting insight!

jmo

It won't surprise me if we find out that some of the younger men in the community threatened him in a minor way or told him to stay out of town and away from her. What I imagine is that there could have been some of that, and also a lot of prayer and moral support for her coming from the church community. You don't get to just abuse a young woman in a community like this if she wants out. If she wants out, communities this size will offer help from many different places and in many different ways.

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[margarita25]

It is def a deeply religious area -- there all lots of interviews with like the devil, and evil and jesus and praying and stuff

def has a little ole town feel to it.

moo

A thought....if he was "deeply religious", might he have thought he was possessed?