TX - 26 dead, 20 injured in church shooting, Sutherland Springs, 5 Nov 2017 #1

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  • #881
  • #882
Well that's true. My BA is in American Studies and with that I learned a lot that explains our gun culture. Guns are in our collective consciousness. In the DNA of every second generation American and beyond.

We have a western mythology that views guns as symbolic of many characteristics and ideologies we tend to value in this country- freedom, personal responsibility, protecting one's family, individualism, manifest destiny, strength, independence, ruggedness, the frontier, protecting the weak, avenging the oppressed, overcoming tyranny, etc.

I mean it goes back to the founding of the nation. And goes forward 125 years through the westward expansion.

We are not Canada or Sweden. We have a very different ethos and a different national mythology. Do we have a problem with gun culture? I think we do. But because we aren't like those other nations, because our history is so different, I don't believe we can approach guns the same way as these other nations do.

The divide doesn't narrow by pounding one's opinion into the ears of the other, over and over. That hasn't worked yet and it won't work now. A conversation would be good. But an honest one that doesn't shut down the reality of who we are, like it or not. We need to respect each other's opinions and try to understand where everyone is coming from rather than becoming entrenched and angry.

Ultimately, that approach hasn't worked and won't fix anything.

Nailed it. Great post.
 
  • #883
That's true. And people pray out loud and silently in schools daily. Forcing people to pray with a daily, principal or teacher-led prayer doesn't stop this.

I bet we find he came from a family that believes in God and went to church. This is not about religion except that it can show how a church community can love one another "directly" as the pastor's wife described, how they can support one another and be supported throughout this horror.

That was supposed to be "fiercely" not "directly". Auto correct.
 
  • #884
  • #885
Re: gun prohibitions......18USC 922g 1-9 (specifically, 9)
 
  • #886
  • #887
I wonder how long ago he was denied his concealed permit. Maybe he targeted his ex-wife’s family because due to her report he didn’t get the concealed that he wanted. In his mind it’s all her fault.

IMOO.
 
  • #888
  • #889
  • #890
  • #891
  • #892
So, he had a job.

Comes from what seems like a decent family, is married to what seems like a nice person, is a father, has a place to live, was employed.

And then went off the deep end.

Still missing info here....

jmo

No longer had a job. The water park he HAD worked at over the summer went on limited hours in Sept. and closed for the winter on Nov. 1. So he was unemployed.
Probably barely earned enough when he was working to afford a wife and child. Lived on his parent's property. Wonder who paid for his SUV?
His problems were a long, long time coming to end up here. I say look at his early childhood. Especially, his relationship with his father.
 
  • #893
I reported a FB "friend" for threatening to shoot up a school in WA. FB did nothing. Local LE and FBI said there was no real threat. They acted annoyed I bothered to contact them. The guy is a ticking time bomb.

(Trust me, the FBI CounterTerrorism Task Force would be veeeeryyy interested in this guy...guns, gear and "Prepared for ISIS"...)
 
  • #894
And remember the studies done on violent young boys and men who had been prescribed anti-psychotic and behavioral drugs as adolescent?

Hope they do a post mortem on his brain. Unless he blew his brains out and his frontal lobes are destroyed.

Not sure which studies in particular you are referencing, but I will say this, the great majority of studies I've seen people cite to try to draw conclusions about the relationship between anti-psychotic drugs and violence are correlative rather than causative. It's a common error, and one I've been guilty of making myself, until taking a Stats course.

So if we're talking about subjective conclusions, in my personal experience, parents of children who have been prescribed anti-psychotic drugs tend to look into those drugs very carefully due to the general negative association society has given them the past decade or so via these correlative studies. They can have side effects, occasionally serious--though statistically, these are far more likely to be detrimental to the child personally (eg. drooling, clumsiness, etc) than society at large. So parental vigilance should be a given in assessing 1) whether the drugs are absolutely necessary, and 2) whether the benefits outweigh the side effects. Whether or not his parents were responsible in this regard, who knows? But I'm not going to assume the worst of them at this point.

IOW, just not ready to nod my head and jump on any bandwagon making the assertion that this church violence happened because, according to a school buddy, the shooter had been on "a lot of" anti-psychotic medication back when he knew him. (Even if true, it's equally possible that parental supervision of his regularly taking those meds *prevented* something like this happening earlier in his history.)
 
  • #895
But we don't know those screen grabs are legit. Photoshop is easy. They photoshopped other things.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

This was pretty early after it happened. The front screenshot with the AR-15, and his kids, looked legit too. The fella who snapped it didn't even crop out his own i.d. info... which I do (I'm just weird that way).
 
  • #896
“His parents had him on high doses of ‘psych’ meds from 6th to 9th grade, the time I knew him,” said the student, who only wished to be identified as Reid.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/11/06/texas-church-shooting-who-is-gunman-devin-patrick-kelley.html

Texas Gov. Greg Abbott on Monday said there was a connection between the "very deranged individual" and the church where the slayings took place, telling "FOX & Friends" that people will learn about a link.

"I don't think the church was just randomly attacked," he said. "I think there was a reason why the shooter chose this church."

The gunman was also denied a Texas gun permit, according to Abbott.

"He was rejected either because he did not fully answer all the questions that are required to get a Texas gun permit, or he answered those questions wrong, that we still don't know," he said.
So clearly they tried. And I bet they also pinned some amount of hope on the idea of the military straightening him out some how, maybe the routine agreeing with him and such, only to be disappointed.

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  • #897
(O/T, after seeing all these "Sam Hyde" hoax posts, I realized this name is familiar from the San Bernadino Shooting thread...note to self to go back and check..)
 
  • #898
BBM

Here we go. This is the "missing info" some of us expected.

A common thread in many of these mass shootings is psych drugs. I'm NOT saying psych drugs are the cause of all evil, so please don't put that statement into my mouth.

What I am saying is that we have a mental health issue in this culture. People can go around and around about guns, but that just avoids addressing the mental health crisis we have.

Just my opinion.

I don't think it's any one thing. Most of these lunatics don't meet the definition of danger to themselves or others prior to their mass murders. If every domestic abuser or imbalanced loner was hospitalized our streets would be empty and our economy collapsed. (A little bit of hyperbole but just a little')

So many examples of ticking time bombs. Sometimes people hear the ticks and ignore it. Sometimes they don't. But 99% never go off like this.

Like everyone I look for the instant, easy answers when something like this happens. We tend to look for answers that support our worldviews and that make us feel confident that one of our own couldn't do something like this or that if the nation adopted our views we could fix this.

But IMO there is no easy fix. The issues and causes are complex, complicated and varied. It's not any one thing.
 
  • #899
what is a golf clap as opposed to a clap!!!!!!!

Deliberate quite, respectable applause.
I am a Masters Tournament Veteran so, there ya go.

Trying to stay outta trouble round these here parts.


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  • #900
So clearly they tried. And I bet they also pinned some amount of hope on the idea of the military straightening him out some how, maybe the routine agreeing with him and such, only to be disappointed.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

I'm shocked he got in with that background. Horrified.
 
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