TX - 26 dead, 20 injured in church shooting, Sutherland Springs, 5 Nov 2017 #1

[Stunned]

You need a license to carry a concealed handgun or open carry a handgun in TX. The process is very thorough. You get complete fingerprints taken, and you go through an extensive background check that takes weeks. They want to know where you have lived for last 7 years, where you are employed, where you were born, any and all alias used. Heshould also have known from the required training class that if you have ever been convicted of domestic assault you will not get a concealed. Wonder if he thought he was above it or they wouldn’t check him completely. Also if you are not paying your child support you will not get a license.
There is a big list of reasons you can and will be denied.
Castle doctrine allows you to carry in your vehicle and have a gun in your home. The background check is much different to own a gun than to carry a handgun.


Texas is open carry without a license for long guns. Where these modified short barrel rifles fall in that category I don’t know.

Maybe this has already been answered, but does this apply to gun shows/dealers? Do they have to do background checks?

 

[enelram]

OT
It is getting better in Ky., at least where I live. We have a good Humane Shelter and diligent workers. One thing I'd like to see is banning of stacks and chains, soring, gingering, and tail-breaking, on our Tenn. Walking Horses, but our high up elected officials can't have that.

And don't forget the American Saddlebreds. I thought the feds were clamping down on soreing? I believe USEF has
banned it and the other things you mentioned from their sanctioned shows.
I grew up in Ky. showing ASB's and I totally agree with you. Cruel and unnecessary punishment.

 

[Tbone144]

Yes, they do the background checks if they are selling retail guns. If they are selling their private stock, they don’t need to do a background check, like any other private seller. Your concealed carry permit allows you to not have to wait for the background check. You can show that and the paperwork takes about 10 minutes. Usually the background check takes about 5 minutes depending upon how busy the database is.

 

[Cryptic]

It may be unclear to the authors. It's not unclear to me. Convictions for domestic violence-related crimes bar people from even possessing a firearm. That's federal law. http://lawcenter.giffords.org/gun-laws/policy-areas/who-can-have-a-gun/domestic-violence-firearms/

Yes, judicial convictions do exactly that. Administrative convictions in the Court Martial system might not.

As I have stated before, military court martials have both administrative and judicial convictions- even for serious criminal activity (though technically, an administrative conviction could be more accurately described as a "finding of facts").

It might be best to wait for the military to state whether DK had an administrative 'conviction' or a judicial conviction.

 

[rsd1200]

Even if it was, it was likely masking something else. I know someone who was treated for ADD as a child, and was nearly 40 before he found out he wasn't ADD, but bi-polar instead.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Raises hand. Know someone too...

 

[gitana1]

LE said they'd watch him, not to get involved. I honestly think there's way too many crazies for them to monitor!

I think you're right.

 

[Bravo]

O/T but if anyone followed the Dr. Mary Yoder (poisoned) Trial verdict is in on the re-trial. Sorry for the interruption.

 

[Stunned]

Children have gone to daycare in many countries of the world. They have the same music, violent movies and video games, divorce, abuse. What could the difference be?

Parental guilt......Parents giving children permission to be entitled.......Parents not being involved...... Parents on cell phones at pickup....the list could go on and on. And does.

 

[Deleted member 158085]

and what's the solution? How we can prevent the next mass shooting? mental health care is not easy to obtain.

I don't know the solution, and that is why we need to allow the CDC to study the issue and come up with a comprehensive plan.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[BuTuCroquet?]

Nah, not odd. Especially if they were fleeing abuse. imo

Isn’t it odd that no one seems to have come out and said that, though?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rsd1200]

Oh no, rsd, your anguish hurts my heart. Please don't think this of yourself as you sound like a very loving parent who just wants what's best for their child. No way have you failed your son.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you. I don't know this young man's parent's, but it seems he's been a bigger handful than mine (and mine has been a handful). Coming from living with a child who has problems, that started early on, I know what it's like to want better for them, to help them get a fresh start, to consider the fact that you may have to provide a place for them to live, if not in your home, on your property, at some point, b/c they can't seem to mesh with the world around them. Their son had a violent streak, though, that mine does not (thankfully).

 

[BuTuCroquet?]

We can't blame everything on parents — though they're a comforting and convenient scapegoat for many people. The parents are victims, too.

Seems like a big difference between "here" and "other countries" might be our ready access to firearms. MOO

Parental guilt......Parents giving children permission to be entitled.......Parents not being involved...... Parents on cell phones at pickup....the list could go on and on. And does.

 

[Deleted member 158085]

OT
It is getting better in Ky., at least where I live. We have a good Humane Shelter and diligent workers. One thing I'd like to see is banning of stacks and chains, soring, gingering, and tail-breaking, on our Tenn. Walking Horses, but our high up elected officials can't have that.

I was on the front lines trying to get better legislation passed there for 15 years. In that time all we accomplished at the state level was getting euthanasia by gunshot banned and getting the felony cruelty bill eventually - but that only includes torture. We couldn't even get the state of Kentucky to pass a requirement that dogs have shelter. It's not illegal in Kentucky. It's disgusting. And forget about any humane agriculture legislation.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[gitana1]

Yes, judicial convictions do exactly that. Administrative convictions in the Court Martial system might not.

As I have stated before, military court martials have both administrative and judicial convictions- even for serious criminal activity. (though technically, an administrative conviction could be more accurately described as a "finding of stated facts".

It might be best to wait for the military to state whether DK had an administrative 'conviction' or a judicial conviction.

With respect, no. He was court martialed. That is outside the realm of administrative discipline. Court martial indicates criminal charges. And he was sentenced to and served 12 months in military prison. That's not administrative. Not close. Heck, there's even an in-between stage - non-judicial punishment (Article 15) - that he could have been subject to for the commission of certain crimes that aren't as serious. But he wasn't. He was court martialed. Which indicates the highest level of possible discipline. Not administrative, not NJP:

NJP is used by commanders to deal with misconduct issues that are too serious to be dealt with using administrative corrective procedures, but are minor enough to not necessarily be appropriately handled through a full court-martial prosecution.2While it is often neglected as area of concern by many attorneys, this is a mistake. NJP is one of the most powerful disciplinary tools used by commands to punish servicemembers for “crimes” while avoiding a formal court-martial proceeding.3 As such, the practical ramifications for servicemembers facing NJP can be serious.
http://nlgmltf.org/military-law/201...between-admin-proceedings-and-courts-martial/

His discharge status likewise indicates he was not subject to anything close to administrative discipline. He went through the criminal process:

Punitive Discharges. Punitive discharges are authorized punishments of courts-martial and can only be awarded as an approved court-martial sentence pursuant to a conviction for a violation of the UCMJ. There are two types of punitive discharges: Dishonorable Discharge (DD) -- which can only be adjudged by a general court-martial and is a separation under dishonorable conditions; and Bad-Conduct Discharge (BCD) -- which can be adjudged by either a general court-martial or a special court-martial and is a separation under conditions other than honorable.

Administrative Separations. Administrative separations cannot be awarded by a court-martial and are not punitive in nature. Enlisted personnel may be administratively separated with a characterization of service (characterized separation) or description of separation as warranted by the facts of the particular case.
https://www.thebalance.com/military-justice-101-part-iii-4056918

BBM.

Here is what he was likely convicted of, the only assault charge under the UCMJ:

Article 128 (b) (2):

“(a) Any person subject to this chapter who attempts or offers with unlawful force or violence to do bodily harm to another person, whether or not the attempt or offer is consummated, is guilty of assault and shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

(b) Any person subject to this chapter who—

(1) commits an assault with a dangerous weapon or other means or force likely to produce death or grievous bodily harm; or
(2) commits an assault and intentionally inflicts grievous bodily harm with or without a weapon; is guilty of aggravated assault and shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”

https://www.thebalance.com/punitive-articles-of-the-ucmj-3356842

BBM.

 

[Stunned]

Yes, they do the background checks if they are selling retail guns. If they are selling their private stock, they don’t need to do a background check, like any other private seller. Your concealed carry permit allows you to not have to wait for the background check. You can show that and the paperwork takes about 10 minutes. Usually the background check takes about 5 minutes depending upon how busy the database is.

So they would basically make more money quicker by just selling their private stock. I wonder how many do that! That's a pretty big loophole!

 

[rsd1200]

Fine-tuning the details on his targeting locals on Facebook:

"Devin Patrick Kelley spent the months before his attack 'starting drama' with strangers on Facebook — and he specifically targeted people from 'within 20 minutes' of the population-400 town where he committed Sunday’s heinous attack, according to resident Johnathan Castillo."

http://nypost.com/2017/11/06/texas-shooter-trolled-town-on-facebook-before-attack/

What's weird is that it seems like he was specifically targeting his MIL/inlaws, but his Facebook provocations were against the community in general. ??

jmo

Maybe he came to hate her so much he wanted her to feel his hate, know his hate. She knows it now. She's alive, maybe by luck of the draw, but her life will never be the same.

 

[gitana1]

We can't blame everything on parents — though they're a comforting and convenient scapegoat for many people. The parents are victims, too.

Seems like a big difference between "here" and "other countries" might be our ready access to firearms. MOO

I think it's very complex. Much more complex than that simple difference. There's economic pressures, access to medical care, for-profit health care, community support/attitudes about privacy and independence, national history and mythology, cultural parenting styles, military service/involvement in war, etc.

I just think these cases are always pretty complex. No one thing is the reason for it or could've prevented it. It's likely a real combination of factors.

 

[Bernina]

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...06&utm_campaign=breakingnews&utm_term=nprnews

Kelley's punitive discharge — a bad conduct discharge — did not prohibit him from owning a gun, as a dishonorable discharge would have.But under federal law, anyone convicted of "a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year" is prohibited from possessing a firearm. The same is true for anyone convicted of "a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence," under a provision that allows no exception for the military or law enforcement.
Kelley's conviction qualified under both categories, Christensen says.

 

[rsd1200]

FWIW:

The description of the background check through the federal databases that are conducted prior to fire arm purchase. Concealed carry is completely different:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Instant_Criminal_Background_Check_System


This stands out to me as he was incarcerated for one year, not more than one year:

“A prohibited person is one who:

Has been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year”

It also lists the dishonorable discharge which is still up in the air at this point.

If Academy ran his check and he didn’t tick any of the boxes, they didn’t have a reason not to sell.

The last gun show I was at their was a small professional dealer who denied a sale when the couple started talking about who was going to pass the background check. He explained to us after he didn’t want his name associated with anything improper that may occur. It didn’t feel right to him so he said no. They weren’t going to raise a fuss in that environment and may have just gone further down the line. Starting off the conversation about how you shouldn’t need a background check to buy a 0.22 gave them a weird vibe from the start.

So, TX runs background checks at gun shows? We do not.

 

[Tbone144]

So they would basically make more money quicker by just selling their private stock. I wonder how many do that! That's a pretty big loophole!

From my understanding-Not necessarily. Time wise it would take longer I think. They have to register the gun to themselves before they can sell it as private stock, essentially they have to fill out all the paper work to buy it then they can sell it. A reputable dealer doesn’t want to sell stock to a criminal. They don’t want to lose their business and possibly home by selling to someone who could commit a crime and possibly face civil damages. I wouldn’t think a responsible gun owner would risk the same either. I don’t know if there is precedent or not for civil trial...I imagine it’s been taken to court.

The background check literally takes 5-10 minutes. They call or send your information to the FBI computer that runs it through their database.

I wonder if Academy’s stock has dropped, I imagine they are getting hate mail like crazy for “letting this happen”. If the feds didn’t flag him, Academy wasn’t at fault. Now if he is flagged in the database and Academy didn’t really do a check or ignored the check...that’s a different story. I’m sure it’s being looked at and we’ll have to wait.

There are plenty of unsavory folks who would be willing to make a buck and not care who they are selling a gun to, don’t get me wrong.