TX - 26 dead, 20 injured in church shooting, Sutherland Springs, 5 Nov 2017 #2

  • #881
I was one of the lucky ones. I had worked in some psychiatry, and had a wonderful boss that had worked decades of psychiatry. Yet 'the system' is tiring, complicated, and frustrating. You have to fight each step of the process to understand what is going on. You have to advocate for the patient or the help doesn't come. You have to be persistent. You have to actively seek information.

It's not like when you've a heart condition and the doctors explain what's wrong, the various ways to treat it. Prescribe your heart meds and schedule your procedures. Explain what to expect. How long healing time may be, what complications to look for, etc. Home health may even be ordered, physical therapy, occupational therapy, maybe even a few weeks in a skilled health facility.
 
  • #882
I guess what makes me most concerned -no link -sorry it's in the thread, ([emoji40] I'll find it) **** see below ****
is that the AF discharged him, knowing he was in deep need of help.
The very people that sent him on his way, were probably fearful of him... All the while KNOWING he would have NO ACCESS to any mental health benefits.

They passed the buck.

They and their families are safe.

They SAW A THREAT - & ridded themselves of it.

If they sleep at night knowing of the lives lost, they are no different than him!
****"After his guilty plea, Mr. Kelley served just eight months in military prison. In June 2013 he was let out, having been knocked down to the lowest possible rank and given a bad conduct discharge that barred him from nearly all veterans benefits, including mental health treatment."****

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/...nl=top-stories&nlid=68626860&ref=cta&referer=
MOO

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  • #883
No, the door is on the other side. I took a screen shot of a video with a wider view to show the location of that.

attachment.php


Here's a view from the outside of the church, on the side where the door is located. This is a screen shot from an Easter sunrise service that was held on the lawn. I blurred the faces for privacy. You can see that the church has a long porch on the side, and there's rooms off that porch. At the end of the porch is the door that goes inside the sanctuary. It is a little hard to see the door, so I made an arrow pointing toward it. Best I could do.

attachment.php

I see now. It opens directly in front of the black speaker/boxthing, in the former photo..

From what I understood, he walked the perimeter of the church, shooting, and then entered the church, finished what he came there to do. I think though, that he then exited out the side door. The man who shot him, said he saw him come from around the corner of the church, and the dude's truck was sitting there, running. Not that I guess it matters, it's just ,surreal.
 
  • #884
That 'hold' of 24-72 is utter :cow: :****: Rapid stabilization....well there's MANY situations that rapid doesn't exists, that the person needs ongoing help not a brief observation, the patient and family members get upset and often do NOT seek further treatment because they feel like they were failed. That there's no hope, no help out there. I'll give an example....

Imagine having to call the police to have your father committed because of a psychotic break. Police arrive, your father says he isn't going to harm himself, nor anyone. So police say there's nothing they can do. HOWEVER if the right questions are asked, you get the answers. Police then ask about my Mom...Dad says she's possessed and the only way to help her is to kill her and get rid of the demons. THAT is enough to finally get transport to the psychiatry hospital. At this point, he can hold a conversation, can avoid mentioning Mom, the demons, etc.

Two days later, there's no improvement. Mom can't even visit because the sight of her brings out the psychosis. YET, the hospital and doctors decide he has to be discharged. He says he's been up all night riding the bicycle with another patient. *It was an exercise bike, stationary.* Tells me of all the places he rode to. Shows me his moles and freckles on his chest, and swears he is infested with fleas and ticks... yet is being discharged. Follow up with a psychiatrist as needed...

Less than 4 hrs later, he's home. Threatening the same things as before. Luckily THIS time he has an order for Haldol. I gave him a dose, told him we were going on a trip to get away and put him in my car, and head to another hospital 2 hrs away! Mom is frantic because she's afraid he's going to turn on me during that ride. She cannot ride with us. She follows us in her car keeping a distance so Dad doesn't see. TWO HOURS of this. Get to the hospital, they put us in a lockdown room. Again, Mom not allowed to go near that door with a window or Dad gets worse. I'm literally locked in the room with him. He swears the toilet is possessed because it auto flushes. He tries using a credit card to get out, because he saw workers swipe their employee badges to come in the room and leave. This hospital does admit him... they load him with heavy sedatives. He calls Mom after 3 days, crying and not knowing where is he, scared and wanting to come home. Mom married to him about 40yrs at this time, home alone herself, decides to make the 2 hr trip alone and didn't tell any of us siblings. She finds him heavily sedated, and per her "a shell of the man I love", she says he wants to come home and she can't leave him like that... hospital discharges him!!!

Two days later, he's refusing meds and we're back at square one...only this time, Mom doesn't want police called because 'they didn't help' doesn't want him admitted because 'they didn't help', Dad doesn't want meds because Mom is trying poison. He does NOT remember the police, or either hospitalization. I make the decision he has to go back, Mom crying. Get to the first hospital started explaining all we've been through, hospital says he was only released due to insurance and the hold time but informs me that I could have brought him right back from the parking lot that same day and it would have started the admission and stay all over! DO WHAT???

This time there is NO VISITATION allowed for several days. He is kept a week. Finally was stable enough to come home. Every single doctor that saw him couldn't or wouldn't give us a diagnosis of what the heck happened. He'd never had a psychos
is episode before.

Oh my goodness,
Bless your heart., I hope things are better for you and your family.
 
  • #885
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/11/mass-shootings-committed-mentally-ill-171111162521074.html

"This is all a red herring," Liza Gold, a forensic psychiatrist at Georgetown University of Medicine and editor of the book, Gun Violence and Mental Illness said.

"The vast majority of mass shootings are not committed by the diagnosable mentally ill, no matter what politicians try to suggest," Gold said.

"Only about three to five percent of violent acts in the US are committed by individuals who have been diagnosed with a mental illness, and the percentage of crimes they commit with a gun "are lower than the national average for persons not diagnosed with mental illness," according to*findings published*in the American Journal of Psychiatry in 2015."

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  • #886
This article from Time has probably been posted upthread, but I haven't been able to keep up with everything, so I'm posting it in case others are in the same boat. It's a good article - it has a bit of info about the perp in the days before the shootings, but also info about the community.

"'Didn't Even Blink.' Texas Church Shooter Had Been Acting Strangely, Witnesses Say"
http://time.com/5020379/texas-gunman-before-shooting/

jmo
 
  • #887
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...services-week-mass-shooting-article-1.3627665

"The Texas church targeted in a mass shooting last Sunday is holding services again, exactly one week after a gunman riddled the house of worship with bullets and killed 26 parishioners."

"Sunday’s worship services were moved to a baseball park near the charge to accomodate an overflow crowd. Services were initially scheduled to be held at a community center adjacent to the church."
 
  • #888
You know I look at this and I think, why weren't any of those healthy young men able to stop him?

It just seems strange, that they didn't tackle him, I don't know maybe it happened too fast, but I can't see the men just standing there and letting him shoot everybody.

By the way, absolutely no blame here, just my thoughts as I looked at the victims.

Your thoughts?


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They didn't stand a chance against all those bullets...maybe some people tried...
 
  • #889
I'm really worried this is going to happen again. Soon. And it's a helpless feeling because there is no way to predict who, what, where, when.
 
  • #890
Last night I was in a very crowded restaurant, and found myself thinking about what I'd do if someone suddenly started shooting (I'd jump behind the bar for cover, grab a bottle in case I had a chance to hit him in the head with it..)...point is, I suppose chances are slim, knock on wood, that any of us will become a victim of a mass shooting, but pretty sad this crosses my mind...these shooters want to instill fear. We must not let them. Moo.
 
  • #891
I understand why the pastor doesn't want to have services in the church anymore but I wish the building didn't have to be demolished. It would be nice if a new church is built on their other land and this building could be used for some type of outreach with a dedication to the lost members of the congregation.
 
  • #892
I understand why the pastor doesn't want to have services in the church anymore but I wish the building didn't have to be demolished. It would be nice if a new church is built on their other land and this building could be used for some type of outreach with a dedication to the lost members of the congregation.

It's not my decision to make (obviously), but I also wish they would keep the church and keep it as a worship space, symbolizing that good will triumph over bad - the steady will remain steady, even if momentarily shaken.

When I was in grief after a loss of a loved one, I was advised not to make big decisions for several months. It was wise advice, I can affirm in hindsight. I would like to extend that advice to the church - it's just too soon to make this big decision.

But, not my decision, of course, and I respect what the congregation decides.

jmopinion
 
  • #893
You know I look at this and I think, why weren't any of those healthy young men able to stop him?

It just seems strange, that they didn't tackle him, I don't know maybe it happened too fast, but I can't see the men just standing there and letting him shoot everybody.

By the way, absolutely no blame here, just my thoughts as I looked at the victims.

Your thoughts?


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Because the shooter started on the outside, walking around the church, shooting into it. When there's no visible shooter, you naturally would take cover, IMO. When he finally did go in they said he walked up to the front and killed those on the "stage" (sorry, if there's a better word) turned and started shooting the people hiding in the news.
IMO, there was obviously no time for anyone to react and tackle him. Well, not IMO, there obviously wasn't or it would have happened. I believe the whole thing lasted less than 7 minutes?
IIRC,the man that shot him said he was napping, woke up, his daughter drove her car a block to the church, drove back told him there was a shooter, he grabbed his gun and ammo and ran to take cover by his neighbors truck and the shooter was already coming out of the church.

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  • #894
Last night I was in a very crowded restaurant, and found myself thinking about what I'd do if someone suddenly started shooting (I'd jump behind the bar for cover, grab a bottle in cas i had a chance to hit him in the headay with it..)...point is, I suppose chances are slim, knock on wood, that any of us will become a victim of a mass shooting, but pretty sad this crosses my mind...these shooters want to instill fear. We must not let them. Moo.

I do not have the link, but there is the prediction that soon everyone will know the victim of a mass shooting. I know four women from Minnesota that were not shot victims of thr LV shooting, but they were right there and are victims as they have PTSD.

I also know people that live in Newtown although none of their children were shot.
 
  • #895
The brain...the most important aspect of our body and the one the least is known about.

That's why I said they should have retained it to study it.
 
  • #896
I'm really worried this is going to happen again. Soon. And it's a helpless feeling because there is no way to predict who, what, where, when.

Ever since that kid went on the mall rampage, before Christmas, a few years back, I've tried to remember to be more alert, to my surroundings, especially if the kids are with me. If I'm in a place that I know well, I might take a cursory look around but not as much so, as I do in an area in which I'm unfamiliar. If I go to a concert, I try to take note as we are all crowding in, of where other exits are, and a nearest exit when I get seated. I refuse to live in fear though, and stay in my home. I'll not let fear win. If I die, I'll die doing something I was enjoying.
 
  • #897
I'm sorry. HIPAA is just one of those pet peeves of mine because people tend to toss it out as if they know anything about it (and usually 'misspell' it). HIPAA doesn't restrict records from being released by just anyone, only certain entities, generally health related. Police are not under HIPAA, so if they subpoenaed records from health providers, they could release the records to the public without violating HIPAA. They wouldn't, especially at this point in the investigation, but they aren't legally bound under HIPAA not to. So saying that we don't have his medical records because 'HIPAA' just seems like a gross mischaracterization of the law. IMO.

rbbm

Most people here know the basics of HIPAA. You can't go to a doctor's office without signing a HIPAA agreement.

As for the spelling, I think we know what someone means when they say HIPPA. I can never see the point in calling someone out on spelling or grammar especially when you know what they mean. JMO
 
  • #898
I'm really worried this is going to happen again. Soon. And it's a helpless feeling because there is no way to predict who, what, where, when.

I often feel the same way. When will will it happen? Where? How many dead and wounded?

Why?
 
  • #899
rbbm

Most people here know the basics of HIPAA. You can't go to a doctor's office without signing a HIPAA agreement.

As for the spelling, I think we know what someone means when they say HIPPA.
I can never see the point in calling someone out on spelling or grammar especially when you know what they mean. JMO

A female hippo, right? ;) :) (Just trying to lighten the mood, but also tossing out the little trick that finally helped me remember it correctly).
 
  • #900
rbbm

Most people here know the basics of HIPAA. You can't go to a doctor's office without signing a HIPAA agreement.

As for the spelling, I think we know what someone means when they say HIPPA. I can never see the point in calling someone out on spelling or grammar especially when you know what they mean. JMO

:tyou: I taught high school English and Journalism and was a stickler for correct spelling, punctuation, grammar, sentence/paragraph structure, etc. Parochial school nuns taught me well, and I've always blessed my parents for making the sacrifices necessary to send my siblings and I to Catholic school.

I pay very little attention to spelling, grammar, etc. on the internet that is a whole new world and far-removed from my teaching days. I would never chastise or correct posts for rudimentary mistakes that, as you say, we all understand. Geez! I sometimes reread my posts and find that I've committed a grammar or spelling error in haste :blushing:
 

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