TX - Five Yates children drowned, Houston, 20 June 2001 *Insanity*

[TexMex]

Latest on Dietz testimony

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/071506dntexyates.1175d59c.html


HOUSTON - A mentally ill person who believes God is ordering him to commit a crime is insane "if a person is of a faith that God is good and infallible," a forensic psychiatrist testified Friday during Andrea Yates' second murder trial.

But Yates, who believed Satan wanted her to drown her five children in the bathtub, knew that her actions were wrong and therefore is not legally insane, Dr. Park Dietz said.
Dietz said his opinion about Yates also is based on her statements that she knew her thoughts were bad and that killing the children was a sin, said Dietz, who evaluated Yates more than four months after the June 20, 2001, drownings.

"She had obsessions about a thing (hurting her children) for years, and at some point concluded that it must be Satan," Dietz said Friday, testifying in the prosecution's rebuttal phase under cross-examination by the defense.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Latest on Dietz testimony

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/071506dntexyates.1175d59c.html


HOUSTON - A mentally ill person who believes God is ordering him to commit a crime is insane "if a person is of a faith that God is good and infallible," a forensic psychiatrist testified Friday during Andrea Yates' second murder trial.

But Yates, who believed Satan wanted her to drown her five children in the bathtub, knew that her actions were wrong and therefore is not legally insane, Dr. Park Dietz said.
Dietz said his opinion about Yates also is based on her statements that she knew her thoughts were bad and that killing the children was a sin, said Dietz, who evaluated Yates more than four months after the June 20, 2001, drownings.

"She had obsessions about a thing (hurting her children) for years, and at some point concluded that it must be Satan," Dietz said Friday, testifying in the prosecution's rebuttal phase under cross-examination by the defense.

They needed a doctor to say this? Ya'll have been saying it for weeks.

 

[JanPat]

Longtime lurker on Websleuths, never posted. However, I feel I have to weigh in on Dr. Saeed at this point. He has been a lifesaver for my family. My 9-year old daughter has been under his care for the past year and a half. My daughter is bipolar, co-morbid with ADHD, Oppositional Defiant Disorder, and anxiety disorder. Under Dr. Saeed's care, she has gone from violently unmanageable to a reasonable stable young lady. Is she perfect? No. But she is once again functioning and we've been able to recover the loving, caring child she was before her illness engulfed our lives.

My then 8-year old daughter was destroying classrooms, threatening an assistant principal with scissors, and running away at school. Her violence also erupted at home with hitting, screaming, biting rages that would sometimes last for hours at a time. An ER wouldn't admit her because she would be past the manic phase and relatively stable by the time we could get to an ER. Inpatient hospitals are so crowded that you can't get a bed, particularly for a child, unless there is an IMMEDIATE threat of harm to self or others. I tried more than a dozen psychistrists in the Houston area and couldn't get in as a new patient any sooner than 2 months out. Her pediatrician felt it was "just ADHD" and wanted to go directly to Ritalin (needless to say, we've since changed pediatricians!). Dr. Saeed made a way to take her on as a patient when I was truly desperate for care.

Throughout the journey, Dr. Saeed has overseen her med regimen, carefully balancing the benefits of the medications against some potentially serious side effects. He has always started her on the minimum therapeutic level and gradually increases dosages as she shows tolerance for a new med. In switching her from one med to something that may be more effective, it has always been a slow process--gradually reducing the dosage each week until weaned and then gradually increasing the dosage of the replacement. He has also been an strong advocate in dealing with a school system that just doesn't "get it".

I won't begin to judge his decisions in Andrea's case as I wasn't there to be able to evaluate for myself. I'm not excusing his choices in her case. Perhaps he made some bad decisions. For my particular family, however, I thank God every day that he was there when we needed him.

Sorry for the long post--just felt strongly enough that I needed to add my 2 cents!

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I won't begin to judge his decisions in Andrea's case as I wasn't there to be able to evaluate for myself. I'm not excusing his choices in her case. Perhaps he made some bad decisions. For my particular family, however, I thank God every day that he was there when we needed him.

Sorry for the long post--just felt strongly enough that I needed to add my 2 cents!

Hi JanPat and welcome!! I'm so sorry about all you and your daughter have been through. I'm glad that she's doing so well now. I hope to see more of your posts here and throughout the forum!!!

 

[txsvicki]

The doctor that took Andrea off of the Haldol should be shot. I blame him and Rusty for what happened. That doctor should have known better. If Andrea made the choice to take herself off of her meds...I've heard that too...the her husband should have been aware of that because of changes in her behavior. A lot of the time a mentally ill person will take their meds and feel so much better. Because they are feeling better they come to believe that they are better and don't need the meds. It just goes on and on.

Anyone who has listened to the doctors...especially the lady...that spent time with Andrea should come to realize that she is a very sick woman. The law should be "guilty BUT mentally ill.

I believe the people who are having a hard time believing that Andrea is very sick and was delusional when she murdered her children don't have any understanding about mental illness. If a person has ever worked with mentally ill people and studied mental illness they have no problem understanding this case. Like one doctor said in the Deanna Laney case...a delusional person can think...like calling 911 like both of these woman did. They didn't hide their children but believed they were following different voices. When both of these woman were arrested their affect was flat. They told what they had done with no emotion at all...like robots. Deanna Laney bashed her three boys heads in with big rocks but didn't kill the baby. He is blind and brain damaged now. A Texas jury aquitted Deanna Laney. She was sent to a mental hospital. Andrea Yates had a long history of mental illness...Deanna didn't...yet a Texas jury found her guilty and sent her to prison. Doesn't make sense to me. I hope this time they send Andrea to a mental hospital where she will remain for the rest of her life.

I'm not so sure about Deanna Laney. I think she is insane but when I recently watched a re run of the Psychiatrist interviewing her I noticed something odd. She was telling about the big rock and putting it under her bed to use in the killings later that night. The interviewer asked her if this was to use later and she said yes and then got a totally different look on her face like "uh oh, I shouldn't have said that". Next she started stammering and changing the subject somewhat. To me, the way she told the whole story sounded just like other Pentecostal people that I have heard talking and who believe in the gift of prophecy and she was very orderly with the tale except for that one instance. My ex husband became a pentecostal type preacher and once thought he saw Satan sitting on a fence post. If Laney can ever get out and be free, then it's not fair that Andrea never will.

 

[Texana]

The doctor that took Andrea off of the Haldol should be shot. I blame him and Rusty for what happened. That doctor should have known better. If Andrea made the choice to take herself off of her meds...I've heard that too...the her husband should have been aware of that because of changes in her behavior. A lot of the time a mentally ill person will take their meds and feel so much better. Because they are feeling better they come to believe that they are better and don't need the meds. It just goes on and on.

Anyone who has listened to the doctors...especially the lady...that spent time with Andrea should come to realize that she is a very sick woman. The law should be "guilty BUT mentally ill.

I believe the people who are having a hard time believing that Andrea is very sick and was delusional when she murdered her children don't have any understanding about mental illness. If a person has ever worked with mentally ill people and studied mental illness they have no problem understanding this case. Like one doctor said in the Deanna Laney case...a delusional person can think...like calling 911 like both of these woman did. They didn't hide their children but believed they were following different voices. When both of these woman were arrested their affect was flat. They told what they had done with no emotion at all...like robots. Deanna Laney bashed her three boys heads in with big rocks but didn't kill the baby. He is blind and brain damaged now. A Texas jury aquitted Deanna Laney. She was sent to a mental hospital. Andrea Yates had a long history of mental illness...Deanna didn't...yet a Texas jury found her guilty and sent her to prison. Doesn't make sense to me. I hope this time they send Andrea to a mental hospital where she will remain for the rest of her life.

:clap: :clap: :clap:


:blowkiss: Thank you for saying it so much better than I could have said.

 

[concernedperson]

The doctor that took Andrea off of the Haldol should be shot. I blame him and Rusty for what happened. That doctor should have known better. If Andrea made the choice to take herself off of her meds...I've heard that too...the her husband should have been aware of that because of changes in her behavior. A lot of the time a mentally ill person will take their meds and feel so much better. Because they are feeling better they come to believe that they are better and don't need the meds. It just goes on and on.

Anyone who has listened to the doctors...especially the lady...that spent time with Andrea should come to realize that she is a very sick woman. The law should be "guilty BUT mentally ill.

I believe the people who are having a hard time believing that Andrea is very sick and was delusional when she murdered her children don't have any understanding about mental illness. If a person has ever worked with mentally ill people and studied mental illness they have no problem understanding this case. Like one doctor said in the Deanna Laney case...a delusional person can think...like calling 911 like both of these woman did. They didn't hide their children but believed they were following different voices. When both of these woman were arrested their affect was flat. They told what they had done with no emotion at all...like robots. Deanna Laney bashed her three boys heads in with big rocks but didn't kill the baby. He is blind and brain damaged now. A Texas jury aquitted Deanna Laney. She was sent to a mental hospital. Andrea Yates had a long history of mental illness...Deanna didn't...yet a Texas jury found her guilty and sent her to prison. Doesn't make sense to me. I hope this time they send Andrea to a mental hospital where she will remain for the rest of her life.

B, you are right on course. Immeasurable in your resolve and thinking. It isn't that no wrong happened it happened long before. No one followed the path and ultimately, chose themselves over reality.There is culpability whether we want to acknowledge or let an employer acknowledge. Still, 5 children are dead. 5 Children and what could have been prevented. Andrea did it but who contributed?

 

[Adalena935]

I agree with her and I've never worked with the mentally ill. In fact, before the last few years and some personal experience I had with a friend, I never would have believed that someone could go from a normal, productive member of society with a high I.Q. and a professional, degreed career to not being able to leave the bedroom. The fact that hormones were involved over and over and over and over again in the Yates case would make it even more pronounced. I don't believe she was talking about anyone here, but the truth is when we read comments about this case, some people say that its not possible for someone to go from where she was to where she got and that's just not true.

Oh no, I didn't take her post like that. I specified; people who have read about yates crimes in the news. Impossible to know the minds of all who're privy to this news.

I'll try to make myself more clear. I don't think either side holds moral high ground just because they have differing opinions. Every case always has two sides.

The state obviously thinks she's guilty or they wouldn't have arrested her. A DA charging anyone with murder, is essentially saying; "We believe you to be guilty and we intend to prove it."

Juries are chosen from ordinary citizens. I'm confident the people of the great state of Texas will make the right decision. I happen to agree with the prosecution's case and I do not mean to offend anyone by saying so.

It's true that it's just a matter of where she will spend her time. They (TX) have the two other murders. I doubt they're worried.

 

[Adalena935]

Longtime lurker on Websleuths, never posted. However, I feel I have to weigh in on Dr. Saeed at this point. He has been a lifesaver for my family. My 9-year old daughter has been under his care for the past year and a half. My daughter is bipolar, co-morbid with ADHD, Oppositional Defiant Disorder, and anxiety disorder. Under Dr. Saeed's care, she has gone from violently unmanageable to a reasonable stable young lady. Is she perfect? No. But she is once again functioning and we've been able to recover the loving, caring child she was before her illness engulfed our lives.

My then 8-year old daughter was destroying classrooms, threatening an assistant principal with scissors, and running away at school. Her violence also erupted at home with hitting, screaming, biting rages that would sometimes last for hours at a time. An ER wouldn't admit her because she would be past the manic phase and relatively stable by the time we could get to an ER. Inpatient hospitals are so crowded that you can't get a bed, particularly for a child, unless there is an IMMEDIATE threat of harm to self or others. I tried more than a dozen psychistrists in the Houston area and couldn't get in as a new patient any sooner than 2 months out. Her pediatrician felt it was "just ADHD" and wanted to go directly to Ritalin (needless to say, we've since changed pediatricians!). Dr. Saeed made a way to take her on as a patient when I was truly desperate for care.

Throughout the journey, Dr. Saeed has overseen her med regimen, carefully balancing the benefits of the medications against some potentially serious side effects. He has always started her on the minimum therapeutic level and gradually increases dosages as she shows tolerance for a new med. In switching her from one med to something that may be more effective, it has always been a slow process--gradually reducing the dosage each week until weaned and then gradually increasing the dosage of the replacement. He has also been an strong advocate in dealing with a school system that just doesn't "get it".

I won't begin to judge his decisions in Andrea's case as I wasn't there to be able to evaluate for myself. I'm not excusing his choices in her case. Perhaps he made some bad decisions. For my particular family, however, I thank God every day that he was there when we needed him.

Sorry for the long post--just felt strongly enough that I needed to add my 2 cents!

Thank you so much for sharing what you know of this doctor. That's very good of you. I'm happy your daughter is better under his care.

 

[Earthbound Misfit I]

If she wasn't psychotic why was she on anti-psychotic medication up until days before she killed the children??

A juror would have to totally dismiss ALL her medical records to believe that.

Her med records say no. she was depressed but not psychotic at the time of the commission of this crime.

 

[Goody]

Latest on Dietz testimony

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/071506dntexyates.1175d59c.html


HOUSTON - A mentally ill person who believes God is ordering him to commit a crime is insane "if a person is of a faith that God is good and infallible," a forensic psychiatrist testified Friday during Andrea Yates' second murder trial.

But Yates, who believed Satan wanted her to drown her five children in the bathtub, knew that her actions were wrong and therefore is not legally insane, Dr. Park Dietz said.
Dietz said his opinion about Yates also is based on her statements that she knew her thoughts were bad and that killing the children was a sin, said Dietz, who evaluated Yates more than four months after the June 20, 2001, drownings.

"She had obsessions about a thing (hurting her children) for years, and at some point concluded that it must be Satan," Dietz said Friday, testifying in the prosecution's rebuttal phase under cross-examination by the defense.

So what if aliens are doing the talking? Does that make her sane? I don't see what difference it makes who is telling a psychotic person to kill if he or she believes they have to obey? The point should be if the person is psychotic or not. How can one little glimmer of sanity that might slip thru temporarily overrule the entire psychotic episode?

 

[Texana]

So what if aliens are doing the talking? Does that make her sane? I don't see what difference it makes who is telling a psychotic person to kill if he or she believes they have to obey? The point should be if the person is psychotic or not. How can one little glimmer of sanity that might slip thru temporarily overrule the entire psychotic episode?

Right. Dietz has said before that if Satan tells you to do something you should know it's wrong, whereas if you kill because God tells you,that makes you insane legally because God would never tell you to do something wrong.

Does that even make sense? If you think you hear voices, does it follow that you have enough rational brain functioning to decide if you should follow the voices or not?

The first trial was overturned because of Dietz's testimony about a completely non-existent Law & Order television episode. So he has a dog to hunt in the second trial, in seeing that Yates receives the same verdict as the first trial.

 

[Goody]

Right. Dietz has said before that if Satan tells you to do something you should know it's wrong, whereas if you kill because God tells you,that makes you insane legally because God would never tell you to do something wrong.

Does that even make sense? If you think you hear voices, does it follow that you have enough rational brain functioning to decide if you should follow the voices or not?

The first trial was overturned because of Dietz's testimony about a completely non-existent Law & Order television episode. So he has a dog to hunt in the second trial, in seeing that Yates receives the same verdict as the first trial.

I agree.

 

[TexMex]

So what if aliens are doing the talking? Does that make her sane? I don't see what difference it makes who is telling a psychotic person to kill if he or she believes they have to obey? The point should be if the person is psychotic or not. How can one little glimmer of sanity that might slip thru temporarily overrule the entire psychotic episode?

Hi Goody

I agree...one lady hears a 'voice' of God, the other a 'voice' of Satan commanding them to do a horrific crime---and only one of them is crazy according to Dietz...



I agree RKnowley........

Yesterday's Houston Chronicle

But he acknowledged that while she was hospitalized in 1999 after her two suicide attempts, she improved after being given an anti-psychotic medication.

"There was a psychotic process related to her depression," Dietz said.

In addition to his videotaped interviews with Yates, parts of which were shown to jurors Thursday, Dietz said he reviewed her medical records and criminal case file. He said he also reviewed records from her stay in July 2004 at the University of Texas Medical Branch Hospital in Galveston.

He said Yates was depressed over the recent anniversary of the drownings, and then her husband told her he was filing for divorce, which Rusty Yates did in 2005. Andrea Yates was severely dehydrated and showed psychotic symptoms while hospitalized, Dietz said.

 

[TexMex]

Link to interesting post of a person who had dealings with Michael Woroniecki

two long posts....

http://boards.courttv.com/showthread.php?threadid=268300&pagenumber=1

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Oh no, I didn't take her post like that. I specified; people who have read about yates crimes in the news. Impossible to know the minds of all who're privy to this news.

I'll try to make myself more clear. I don't think either side holds moral high ground just because they have differing opinions. Every case always has two sides.

The state obviously thinks she's guilty or they wouldn't have arrested her. A DA charging anyone with murder, is essentially saying; "We believe you to be guilty and we intend to prove it."

Juries are chosen from ordinary citizens. I'm confident the people of the great state of Texas will make the right decision. I happen to agree with the prosecution's case and I do not mean to offend anyone by saying so.

It's true that it's just a matter of where she will spend her time. They (TX) have the two other murders. I doubt they're worried.

Thanks for helping me out understanding the system.

 

[Texana]

O
Juries are chosen from ordinary citizens. I'm confident the people of the great state of Texas will make the right decision. I happen to agree with the prosecution's case and I do not mean to offend anyone by saying so.

It's true that it's just a matter of where she will spend her time. They (TX) have the two other murders. I doubt they're worried.




[/size]

Have you driven with them on the freeways? That might change your opinion.

Seriously, I've been a juror in Harris County. The right decision isn't always necessarily what the prosecution wants. It's what the evidence shows. That is what the jury I served on decided--it was all about the evidence, and nothing more or else.

 

[TexMex]

Dietz testified today that Yates was psychotic the day she drowned the children and at various times two years before the deaths. She had two psychotic symptoms, believing cameras were in the ceiling at her home and that television cartoon characters spoke to her, near the time of the drownings.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/special/drownings/4051097.html

 

[Texana]

Dietz testified today that Yates was psychotic the day she drowned the children and at various times two years before the deaths. She had two psychotic symptoms, believing cameras were in the ceiling at her home and that television cartoon characters spoke to her, near the time of the drownings.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/special/drownings/4051097.html

I like how he described his previous testimony as "unartful." What the heck does that mean?

 

[TexMex]

I like how he described his previous testimony as "unartful." What the heck does that mean?

Boneheaded?


http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl...on/4053771.html

He acknowledged that he testified in her 2002 trial that she was psychotic the day of the drownings and for two years before that.

"Did mental illness cause her to kill her children? It was one of the significant causes," Dietz said Monday.